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ski_king
04-04-2007, 08:04 AM
I was looking thru the build a boat section on the main website and I noticed the option for a 225 HP Audi/VW based TPI 225-6 Diesel is now listed.
I may have missed a earlier discussion that it was available. I remember the rumors, but not that it had been released.

Hey MC and dealers? Tell us more about it. How well does it work? 225 HP sounds a little low to me.

I noticed it was only available on the 190 and 197.

sizzler
04-04-2007, 08:13 AM
from what i was told by the mechanics over here...there is no difference in the pull between the diesel and the petrol engine.....it has a huge amount of torque and this gives a steady pull through the course and especially around corners.....the engine apparently is quieter than the V8's.........the mechanics over here were very impressed with it......

diesel over here is more expensive than petrol......5-7% dearer....

i would assume that the GPH is less for the diesel.......so this would balance it out....

#47of100TeamMC
04-04-2007, 08:29 AM
I would think that is correct and the Torque would be awesome for low-mid speed ranges... Also, you could put in Off-Highway Diesel and save the road tax. I think here in WI. that saves around 20cents a gallon.

Jkelly
04-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Time to upgrade the 197.

Dan K
04-04-2007, 09:01 AM
Diesel is also a safer fuel since it has a lower flash point. The European Diesel engines are fantastic. I usually drive one whenever I am there, I like the torque they have.

cmack
04-04-2007, 09:33 AM
The X-7 has it as an option also.

captain planet
04-04-2007, 09:59 AM
Since this would be a 2007 or later motor, won't it need to use that new diesel fuel that is ultra low in sulfer? I have been investigating getting a VW Jetta TDI and from talking to people who have diesel motors if you get a 2007 or newer it may be a bit if a challenge to find stations that have this fuel. Anyone have any idea on this?

erkoehler
04-04-2007, 10:03 AM
We will only be ordering one if the customer pre-pays for it.

JKTX21
04-04-2007, 10:29 AM
Who would be working on this eninge if it needed warranty work? I'm sure it's stout, but I like that 350 mechanics can be pulled off of any street corner!

Datdude
04-04-2007, 10:30 AM
What is the price difference? When I bought my truck it was a $7000 upgrade I think?

sizzler
04-04-2007, 10:31 AM
What is the price difference? When I bought my truck it was a $7000 upgrade I think?

£10,000 over here....way tooo pricey

sizzler
04-04-2007, 10:31 AM
Who would be working on this eninge if it needed warranty work? I'm sure it's stout, but I like that 350 mechanics can be pulled off of any street corner!

thats nice...but where would you find 350 hookers??

ski_king
04-04-2007, 10:42 AM
£10,000 over here....way tooo pricey
Unless I did my math wrong, that is $19,762 USD:confused:

I was guessing about $5000 to $8000

JKTX21
04-04-2007, 10:44 AM
thats nice...but where would you find 350 hookers??

ON THE STREET CORNER!
:D

sizzler
04-04-2007, 10:45 AM
your maths are correct denny.........it will probably be $8-10,000 over there...we are ripped off massive over here

ski_king
04-04-2007, 10:46 AM
your maths are correct denny.........it will probably be $8-10,000 over there...we are ripped off massive over here
Yes, I know, anything I sell to the UK, I add 25% to the price.:D

MYMC
04-04-2007, 10:48 AM
Unless I did my math wrong, that is $19,762 USD:confused:

I was guessing about $5000 to $8000
Actually the price is/will be higher here.

sizzler
04-04-2007, 10:53 AM
higher than 19,000 bucks?????

or higher than dennys 8k???


mike??

erkoehler
04-04-2007, 11:14 AM
khigher than both.........combined. kk

MYMC
04-04-2007, 11:17 AM
khigher than both.........combined. kk
Eric has it right...again.

sizzler
04-04-2007, 11:19 AM
thats outrageous...........

captain planet
04-04-2007, 11:21 AM
HOLD THE PHONE!! Your saying the diesel engine is over $27,000? :eek:

Norris
04-04-2007, 11:26 AM
Since this would be a 2007 or later motor, won't it need to use that new diesel fuel that is ultra low in sulfer? I have been investigating getting a VW Jetta TDI and from talking to people who have diesel motors if you get a 2007 or newer it may be a bit if a challenge to find stations that have this fuel. Anyone have any idea on this?


Had a 2007 Benz GL 320 CDI and for the first month have NEVER had a problem finding fuel in the midwest (OH,KY,IN,TN). Used 5% biodiesel last week with no problems at all!!

Diesel we in the USA are years behind!

Thrall
04-04-2007, 11:37 AM
SOunds like a good option, but MYMC, did you say that correctly??? The TDI option will be OVER $27000 upgrade? That does not make any sense.

erkoehler
04-04-2007, 11:49 AM
there was no error in our price, talk with our local dealer for an exact quote.

captain planet
04-04-2007, 11:56 AM
there was no error in our price, talk with our local dealer for an exact quote.
.............:eek3: :eek3: :eek3:

Uh........so who is going to order one of those? I mean, I like the idea since diesels run forever......but you could buy 3 MCX's over the life of the boat for that money. :confused:

I guess if you have a roll of dollar bills on that dispenser next to your toilet you could buy it just for the novelty.

MYMC
04-04-2007, 12:08 PM
When this was discussed with me the price was going to be $25,000 and that was over a year ago...I posted it on these very pages. Sad but true...

Faded & X9-Rated
04-04-2007, 12:17 PM
Is MasterCraft going to put that $25,000 motor in their $90,000 Center Console?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

erkoehler
04-04-2007, 12:34 PM
we have had quite a bit of interest in the CSX. Currently we have two on order and one is sold.

ProTour X9
04-04-2007, 12:38 PM
90000$!!! So much for a really really nice direct drive fishing boat!

I do like the CSX by the way :)

Diesel
04-04-2007, 12:52 PM
Edit - didn't read. I have nothing useful to add...........

cm02WS6
04-04-2007, 02:43 PM
Wow, that price is really high. I think the technology being used on a tournament boat is quite interesting, but nobody's going to try it at that price. Hopefully the price will go down to reasonable levels in a couple years, especially if other boat companies try something similar (which I thought I heard rumors about).

That said, has anyone heard anything more about the actual peformance of these diesel-powered boats?

Thrall
04-04-2007, 03:02 PM
there was no error in our price, talk with our local dealer for an exact quote.

Who needs an exact quote? With $25k as a ballpark price for the upgrade, the only people stupid enough to buy one are those that don't need a quote because they have enough disposable money to not care what it costs.
Erk, please let us know how many of these sell this year.
I'd love to have a diesel boat, but that's ridiculous!

slalomskifreak
04-04-2007, 06:02 PM
http://www.vw-m.de/index.php?id=51&L=1

JohnE
04-04-2007, 07:54 PM
So what exactly would the benefit of the diesel be? Longer engine life and better fuel economy? There must be something else. Emissions? $27K buys a replacement engine and a lot of gas. I'm truly asking, 'cause I don't get it.

BrianM
04-04-2007, 08:14 PM
So what exactly would the benefit of the diesel be? Longer engine life and better fuel economy? There must be something else. Emissions? $27K buys a replacement engine and a lot of gas. I'm truly asking, 'cause I don't get it.
Far as I can see about the only benefit is being the first on your block to have a diesel towboat. :cool:

The numbers don't make a bit of sense. :confused: It would take more than a lifetime to make up the number in fuel.

It is neat that MC is the first to offer a 'production' diesel. But come on... there is no way it cost that much more to produce and install than a gas V8.

slalomskifreak
04-04-2007, 09:36 PM
We will only be ordering one if the customer pre-pays for it.

What do you need to do in order to test drive one. Will certain dealerships have them or can you go to MC and test one?

Curt

VTJC
04-04-2007, 09:38 PM
But come on... there is no way it cost that much more to produce and install than a gas V8.
Are you kidding? Chevy V8ís are some of the cheapest powerplants, thatís why they are used in boats in the first place. The TDIís are high compression diesels with precision aluminum block, complex electronics, high injections pressures and variable turboís. Even in domestic pickups the diesel upgrades from gas V8ís cost $5k+

dmayer84
04-04-2007, 09:44 PM
Im gueesing the cost is for Research and Development, but its still high.

ski_king
04-04-2007, 09:49 PM
I see it is also available on the 280/X80.
Imagine the price adder to upgrade 2 engines.

slalomskifreak
04-04-2007, 09:49 PM
From the VW site:

"But whereas these boats have until now only been available with large capacity gasoline engines based on U.S. designs, two boat models are now available with the latest of high technology diesel packages in the marine market. The Volkswagen Marine TDI 225-6 is at this present time the only marine diesel in its class to use piezo controlled, third generation common rail injection. That enables noise and vibration levels which are proven to be superior in comparison with existing V-8 gasoline marine engines.

At the same time, the TDI 225-6 uses variable turbo charging and an extremely fast electronic management to offer even more spontaneous acceleration than gasoline engines of supposedly higher rating - eliminating any noticeable trace of previously known -turbo lag-.

Users of this new diesel option will, in comparison with the gasoline power options, enjoy very similar top speeds, but even stronger acceleration especially at lower speeds.

This advantage is accompanied with a cut in average fuel consumption of at least 50% in typical ski boat use, which is in most countries further enhanced by the price advantage of diesel fuel against gasoline."

It doesn't show that it is Bio-Diesel ready though. That would be one thing I would have to have.

BriEOD
04-04-2007, 09:52 PM
I'd like to see some head-to-head figures on how the diesel and mo-gas stack up against one another.

Monte
04-04-2007, 09:54 PM
Are you kidding? Chevy V8ís are some of the cheapest powerplants, thatís why they are used in boats in the first place. The TDIís are high compression diesels with precision aluminum block, complex electronics, high injections pressures and variable turboís. Even in domestic pickups the diesel upgrades from gas V8ís cost $5k+


Chevy or Ford power plants are high quality, reputable, and time tested and yes inexpensive. I think it boils down to mass production/ unit cost, and who wants to be the first kid on the block to have the bestest most expensive toy.. VCR's cost $1000 bucks when they first came out in the late 70's. IMHO with the exception to a smaller scale of production there is little difference.

Just think what it will cost if something screws up.......

Just my opinion.......

ski_king
04-04-2007, 09:55 PM
From the VW site:....."cut in average fuel consumption of at least 50% in typical ski boat use......"
Sad part of this is may actually be a cost effective way of saving money in a few years, based on the way gasoline and diesel is to projected to go up in price in a few years.

jaysus
04-04-2007, 10:01 PM
I see it is also available on the 280/X80.
Imagine the price adder to upgrade 2 engines.


straight from the man.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/nefwm/diesel.jpg

Have fun.

280 twin.

Leroy
04-04-2007, 10:38 PM
That will limit sales. I would like to try one out to see what it is like.

88 PS190
04-04-2007, 11:18 PM
me likey diesels...

its going to get a benz engine tho, for more fun.

Leroy
04-04-2007, 11:35 PM
Rumor has it 2009 (maybe 2008) Honda Odyssey will have a V6 diesel. I've owned two diesel vehicles in Europe and would not hesitate to own another one like those.

HOWEVER....

You must also know in Europe where there is ~40% diesel vehicles the climate is much milder, the taxes favor diesel by ~$1/gallon, and they are getting worried about small particle soot, diesel takes ~20% more crude to make a gallon compared to gas.

The answer isn't so clear and Europe and US will alway pick different options in everything they do ;)

http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

BrianM
04-05-2007, 08:52 AM
Are you kidding? Chevy V8ís are some of the cheapest powerplants, thatís why they are used in boats in the first place. The TDIís are high compression diesels with precision aluminum block, complex electronics, high injections pressures and variable turboís. Even in domestic pickups the diesel upgrades from gas V8ís cost $5k+

I understand they are more expensive but $25-30k more expensive? No way!

The cost difference between a gas Jetta and a TDI Jetta is right at $2k. That is a 4cyl but it is as you say "high compression diesels with precision aluminum block, complex electronics, high injections pressures and variable turbo"

MYMC
04-05-2007, 09:34 AM
You cannot compare car engine option prices to boats as the engine prices are factored into the sales volume of the car...that doesn't happen with boats as the production volumes cannot justify it. You have to understand that this engine is being purchased from VW and then marinzied then sold to MC (or whomever) so you have added at least one middle man (actually two because we cannot buy direct) along with the fact VW is just "selling an engine" not building a car.

The truth is many manufactures were looked at and most couldn't or didnít live up to the needed specs...durability, weight, dimensions, power output...etc. Trust me when I tell you that the beloved engines in your truck (I won't discuss brands) didn't come close to making the cut. This option was brought about for the euro market and if it helps here in the states then so be it. The problems here are substantial...infrastructure. Most inland lakes here in the US have no diesel on them so the point becomes moot for the vast majority of owners.

captain planet
04-05-2007, 09:45 AM
diesel takes ~20% more crude to make a gallon compared to gas.


http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

One thing that is coming soon that will change the way you look at power plants in cars and boats is bio diesel. Right now there are great strides being made in soybean to biodiesel, specifically for the shipping industry. Main reason for this is if a ship spills fuel, it will be soybean oil, not diesel fuel.

The point is, bio-diesel is on the rise and MasterCraft is the first on the block to offer this as an option. Yea, the price is outrageous right now, but it will come down eventually.

rcnjson
04-05-2007, 11:00 AM
Are you kidding? Chevy V8ís are some of the cheapest powerplants, thatís why they are used in boats in the first place. The TDIís are high compression diesels with precision aluminum block, complex electronics, high injections pressures and variable turboís. Even in domestic pickups the diesel upgrades from gas V8ís cost $5k+

Point taken
Counterpoint...

All diesels are high compression, thats how they work.

"Precision" what does that mean? They machined the block? Ford and Chevy don't do that? Those as cast cylinder walls must be really abrasive.

Complex electronics? EFI computers aren't complex? I'm feeling pretty shorted on my grade school education because we never covered ECU's. Well, thats public schools for you...

All diesels have high injection pressures, they are injecting fuel into the cylinder on the compression stroke. A diesel injector has to inject at a pressure higher than the cylinder pressure. That is how they work.

Domestic pickups (at least some of them) have variable turbo's from the factory. They are troublesome, but that is the way they come.

I'll put the torch away now. I guess the price doesn't really affect me, I'm not in the market for a $25K boat much less a boat with a $25K option. I like diesel engines, I think there is a place for a diesel under the bump in the middle of a ski machine. I know I could do it for much much much less. I'm not the factory and I don't have to deal with liabilities and warranties or pay the middle mans middle man so there would be some economies that I could offer.
k

BrianM
04-05-2007, 11:07 AM
So I am guessing the day has finally come that it is possible to order a $100k Prostar. Fully optioned with the diesel it has to there.

MYMC
04-05-2007, 11:24 AM
Point taken
Counterpoint...

All diesels are high compression, thats how they work.

"Precision" what does that mean? They machined the block? Ford and Chevy don't do that? Those as cast cylinder walls must be really abrasive.

Complex electronics? EFI computers aren't complex? I'm feeling pretty shorted on my grade school education because we never covered ECU's. Well, thats public schools for you...

All diesels have high injection pressures, they are injecting fuel into the cylinder on the compression stroke. A diesel injector has to inject at a pressure higher than the cylinder pressure. That is how they work.

Domestic pickups (at least some of them) have variable turbo's from the factory. They are troublesome, but that is the way they come.

I'll put the torch away now. I guess the price doesn't really affect me, I'm not in the market for a $25K boat much less a boat with a $25K option. I like diesel engines, I think there is a place for a diesel under the bump in the middle of a ski machine. I know I could do it for much much much less. I'm not the factory and I don't have to deal with liabilities and warranties or pay the middle mans middle man so there would be some economies that I could offer.
k
Ha, ha...love it...so ALL Diesels have high injection pressures...compared to what? While torching you might want to clarify since there is a difference between injection system types, i.e. direct injection (direct to the cylinder) VS intake port injection...the pressures are substantially different. Your oversimplification of diesel operation aside there are "high compression diesels" as well as standard compression.

Glad you can do it for much less...are you going to offer the NMMA/Coast Guard approval as well since your diesel engine weighs more and will change the balance point of the boat?

If you are looking to start ridiculous arguments by flaming then at least have ALL the facts in order to substantiate your point...better to light a touch I guess...jeez.

rcnjson
04-05-2007, 11:46 AM
Yes, all diesels have high injection pressures comparied to spark ignition engines. Diesels compress air, not air and fuel. Fuel is added to the compressed air so it has to be at a much higher pressure. 30# bosch style injectors at 43 PSI just aren't going to cut it.

I understand that there are different compression ratios in diesel engines, but the physics are the same. So much air - So much fuel... that doesn't change.

I did mention liabilities and warranties

I've done plenty of other stuff that a lot of very very smart people said couldn't be done

MYMC
04-05-2007, 12:11 PM
"Yes, all diesels have high injection pressures comparied to spark ignition engines. Diesels compress air, not air and fuel. Fuel is added to the compressed air so it has to be at a much higher pressure. 30# bosch style injectors at 43 PSI just aren't going to cut it."

How about a HUEI system that can generate 150MPa to a MBZ that uses 25MPa? My guess is that the 150MPa system cost more and that is based on high school education.

"I understand that there are different compression ratios in diesel engines, but the physics are the same. So much air - So much fuel... that doesn't change."

But the parts to withstand the increased pressures would and that is the point...more expensive parts

"I did mention liabilities and warranties"

Yes, you did...but the fairly tale world of not worring about such MAJOR issues aside you didn't address performance, and the balance point of a tournament ski boat is critical.

"I've done plenty of other stuff that a lot of very very smart people said couldn't be done"
I have no doubt...flame on flame on.:rolleyes:

CarlosCabanas
04-05-2007, 01:41 PM
now I can finally put my boats on the dream list thread... Biodiesel, saltwater series prostar 197 and x-star. Now that would be a cool fleet! Leave it to MC!!:D :D :D

rcnjson
04-05-2007, 01:47 PM
150 MPa = 6 X 25 MPa
25 MPa = 84.3 X 43 PSI
To me, injection pressures in different types of diesel injection systems are much closer to each other than they are to a spark ignition injection system.

I'm off to candy land

Thrall
04-05-2007, 02:42 PM
While this may not be a very cost effective option right now, for those of us that aren't made of money, I'm glad MC is doing it for a couple reasons. First, they'll sell enough of them to the $ grows on trees crowd to get their feet wet, so to speak, in the diesel powered business.
Secondly, wait a couple years. By 2009/2010, at least 2 of the big 3 plan on having 1/2 ton pickups with V6 or V8 turbodiesels in the 4 to 5 litre displacement category. By then, MC will have the diesel thing figured out w/ the VW engines and there will be some domestically available options, which should lower the price considerably.

MYMC
04-05-2007, 03:08 PM
150 MPa = 6 X 25 MPa
25 MPa = 84.3 X 43 PSI
To me, injection pressures in different types of diesel injection systems are much closer to each other than they are to a spark ignition injection system.

I'm off to candy land
The formula is 1 megapascal = 145.037738 pound-force/square inch (PSI)
So....150MPa = 21,755.66 max for the HUEI and for the MBZ 25MPa = 3625.94345.

BTW, gasoline engines don't compress gasoline either (at least in the sense most people think about). All fluids are compressible (that is, their density increases under increasing pressure) to some extent, but liquids are much less compressible than gases and are generally considered incompressible. So in this case whether diesel or gasoline you are compressing the air in the cylinder not the fuel or gasoline.

erkoehler
04-05-2007, 03:10 PM
So I am guessing the day has finally come that it is possible to order a $100k Prostar. Fully optioned with the diesel it has to there.


I had a customer submit an online request for a quote on a fully loaded PS 190 w/ the diesel engine......$110k! :)

Monte
04-05-2007, 03:47 PM
I had a customer submit an online request for a quote on a fully loaded PS 190 w/ the diesel engine......$110k! :)

Wow! That is a lick!!!!! good luck with that erk.....:cool: That boat costs more than my first house..... I guess if you got money you can't take it with you...:)

slalomskifreak
04-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Sad part of this is may actually be a cost effective way of saving money in a few years, based on the way gasoline and diesel is to projected to go up in price in a few years.

I average (city/hwy) about 45 mpg in my Jetta TDI. Makes it well worth the 21K I paid for it. I would by the boat if I was shopping for a new one. One gas boat I was more impressed with over any other was the Toyota Epic with the Lexus V8. The gph was outstanding compared to any gas boat out there. Too bad they don't use their motors any longer.

east tx skier
04-05-2007, 04:08 PM
These guys will drop a Diesel in your tournament boat for you. Perfect Pass compatible.

http://www.perfprotech.com/home/md300-ski-1.pdf

CarlosCabanas
04-05-2007, 07:55 PM
These guys will drop a Diesel in your tournament boat for you. Perfect Pass compatible.

http://www.perfprotech.com/home/md300-ski-1.pdf


You don't have any idea what that costs do you??

jimmer2880
04-05-2007, 08:01 PM
These guys will drop a Diesel in your tournament boat for you. Perfect Pass compatible.

http://www.perfprotech.com/home/md300-ski-1.pdf

Pretty interesting. I wonder how much they cost for a package? (Not that I'm actually looking - just curious).

Datdude
04-06-2007, 10:24 AM
I wonder if you could get twin stacks coming up through the motorbox blowin' balck smoke? Somethin' like this...........

east tx skier
04-06-2007, 11:51 AM
You don't have any idea what that costs do you??

No, but you can email them at info@allmarinediesel.com

88 PS190
04-06-2007, 08:57 PM
I'm going to contact them for a dealer price (we're a car dealer)

2000205V
04-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Wonder if they make one that is V-drive compatible? I imagine they would just need a different trans.

Anyone know what the gearing ratio is on the one they are offering? I don't think it's a direct drive is it?

I am very interested to see how much the quote for one of these is from Marine Diesel USA.

On their pdf in the above link it says 948lbs. Anyone know how much the GM 350 and trans weighs?

Ric
04-07-2007, 08:59 AM
One thing that is coming soon that will change the way you look at power plants in cars and boats is bio diesel. Right now there are great strides being made in soybean to biodiesel, specifically for the shipping industry. Main reason for this is if a ship spills fuel, it will be soybean oil, not diesel fuel.

The point is, bio-diesel is on the rise and MasterCraft is the first on the block to offer this as an option. Yea, the price is outrageous right now, but it will come down eventually. They only dreamed of this day back in the 80's when they started farm-aid

88 PS190
04-07-2007, 04:15 PM
Wonder if they make one that is V-drive compatible? I imagine they would just need a different trans.

Anyone know what the gearing ratio is on the one they are offering? I don't think it's a direct drive is it?

I am very interested to see how much the quote for one of these is from Marine Diesel USA.

On their pdf in the above link it says 948lbs. Anyone know how much the GM 350 and trans weighs?

They offer it in the X80, that's a V drive configuration.

2000205V
04-07-2007, 05:08 PM
They offer it in the X80, that's a V drive configuration.

I meant if Marine Diesel USA will do a re-power with a V-drive.

I emailed them ... I'll post when I hear back next week.