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Sweet69
03-29-2007, 04:55 PM
I was wondering if there are any "chips" or ways to reprogram the stock ecm on the MCX. I realize that on the Indmar website it says "The MEFI-5 system is custom calibrated by Indmar to provide maximum performance and drive ability", but I don't want to beleive that 350hp is all this thing has in it. I'm willing to bet that with a custom chip it could put out another 15-25hp pretty easily. I have looked around and haven't seen anything to make some easy power, other then new exhaust manifolds.

Ric
03-29-2007, 05:00 PM
MYMC knows alot bout these motors, but no chip or reprogram will work unless it's a closed loop system. do you already have the new cat manifolds?

Oh and welcome sweet69

ProTour X9
03-29-2007, 05:11 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused: :huh: Our dealer said no chips were available or would work

bigmac
03-29-2007, 05:31 PM
I was wondering if there are any "chips" or ways to reprogram the stock ecm on the MCX. I realize that on the Indmar website it says "The MEFI-5 system is custom calibrated by Indmar to provide maximum performance and drive ability", but I don't want to beleive that 350hp is all this thing has in it. I'm willing to bet that with a custom chip it could put out another 15-25hp pretty easily. I have looked around and haven't seen anything to make some easy power, other then new exhaust manifolds.I am under the impression that 350 hp is about all the MCX has in it in it's current state of aspiration, which is determined by air-in/air-out. I doubt that remapping the AF ratios will be of benefit without changing engine breathing. The MCX already has a low restriction intake K&N air filter, so AFAIK the only opportunity for improved breathing is to improve exhaust. I don't know if the new CAT exhaust would help that or if there are other marine exhaust manifolds that would.

The only way I could envision that reprogramming your ECM (re-mapping) would be of benefit would be if Indmar has tweaked the A/F ratios for some reason - say, sat them lean to meet pollution standards.

This all presumes that even if there was some room for improvement in A/F mapping, or if you could find some lower restriction exhaust manifolds, that you could then find someone who can reprogram your ECM. I'm sure you could find someone or some device capable of doing that since the MEFI-5 is a pretty common ECM, but the trick is to know how to do it, and if it was you doing that on your engine, it could be an expensive experiment.

Open-loop EFI's can be re-mapped. Harley Davidson (until they went closed-loop in 2007) uses basically the same Delphi ECM that pre-2007 Indmars use, and HD used to sell their Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner which plugged into the ECM and allowed direct tinkering with the map. Likewise, the aftermarket PowerCommander is an inline module to the ECM and allows the same thing. I can tweak my ECM map on my open-loop Harley with my laptop anytime I want. The difference is that new ECM maps for a variety of HD engine configurations are readily available for download, then upload to the ECM, and there ain't nothin' like that for my boat.

Engine Nut
03-29-2007, 05:34 PM
I was wondering if there are any "chips" or ways to reprogram the stock ecm on the MCX. I realize that on the Indmar website it says "The MEFI-5 system is custom calibrated by Indmar to provide maximum performance and drive ability", but I don't want to beleive that 350hp is all this thing has in it. I'm willing to bet that with a custom chip it could put out another 15-25hp pretty easily. I have looked around and haven't seen anything to make some easy power, other then new exhaust manifolds.

There are no replacable chips or performance calibrations for the MEFI (Marine Electronic Fuel Injection) ECM. The calibrations are only able to be modified by Indmar or somone who has Indmar's encription code and the proper equipment.

It may be possible to squeeze more performance out of the engine but it would come at a cost of durability and reliability. I would not encourage doing anything "mechanical" to the engine like putting on a supercharger, high performance heads and/or changing the cam. Anything you would do to increase the air flow through the engine would require a corresponding increase in fuel delivery which is programmed into the ECM and can't be modified by anyone but Indmar.

Engine Nut

Sweet69
03-29-2007, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I understand all of the engine stuff y'all are talking about, and I know the pros/cons of messing with air-fuel ratios and etc., but didn't know why there isn't something available that could do the same thing for the Indmar mapping that you can do with any other type of computer controled fuel injection, other than the interest/market isn't there and you are kind of forced to deal with whatever the factory decides as far as what is high performance. I was just curious if the Indmar ECM was capable of being re-mapped like you can with most car's/truck's. And I highly doubt that Indmar hasn't held back on the performance that the engine can handle while keeping it reasonably reliable. What stock engine manufacturer doesn't? They build engines in mass and they are going to hold back on pushing the envelope in order to insure that they can warrantee them with out loosing money. All I'm saying is I don't think there is anyway that this is the best these engines can do reliably. From what I've seen this engine could be making more like 385hp easy.

M-Funf
03-29-2007, 06:58 PM
The calibrations are only able to be modified by Indmar or somone who has Indmar's encription code and the proper equipment.

That's what BMW used to say until Steve Dinan cracked the code.:rolleyes: Now there are a few companies who have decrypted the software and can remap A/F ratios for performance modifications. On some cars, it's as simple as attaching a computer to the OBDII port under the dash and flashing the ECU. On some others it requires swapping the chip...

Do newer MC's have an OBDII connection?

rodltg2
03-29-2007, 07:07 PM
why do want more power, its got plenty for skiing..

oohhh just notcied you have an x45, maybe thats why..

UTAHWATERSPORTSGUY
03-29-2007, 08:27 PM
Reprop Instead Its Alot Cheaper

Sweet69
03-29-2007, 08:34 PM
A reprop is the route I will probably go. It's not that I need more power or speed b/c in my eyes the x45 has enough, it's just that knowing that your boat is the best it can be without going overboard is nice.

trickskier
03-29-2007, 09:07 PM
Hey Bigmac,
Any chance you can bolt-on a High Performance Throttle Body like this one and gain some HP?

JimN
03-29-2007, 09:43 PM
Sweet69- once it's out of warranty, knock yourself out but if MC or Indmar OK'd a consumer-performed calibration change while their product was under warranty, I think it would be a first. If you don't mind voiding your warranty, go ahead but if I made a $50K product with a motor that the vast majority of customers don't understand (let alone know how to properly do the basic maintenance on) but want to do a recal on, I wouldn't allow it under my warranty, either. You may know about motors but they, as a manufacturer, need to hit the EPA and C.A.R.B. numbers. Letting the motor Be All It Can Be won't hit them. You can't make power without putting some gas in there and if they put in as much as they used to or what it takes to add 15-25 HP, it wouldn't be as efficient. It would go faster but not with clean exhaust. You don't make a car and set the motor to the brink of destruction and expect it to survive the average driver.

You also need to realize that this hull is designed for its wake, not top speed.

Just because someone can, doesn't mean they should.



As Larry said, "Anything you would do to increase the air flow through the engine would require a corresponding increase in fuel delivery which is programmed into the ECM and can't be modified by anyone but Indmar." but I'll add 'under warranty', again.

JimN
03-29-2007, 09:45 PM
Trickskier- I doubt that the one in the photo will do better than the one they come with. Yeah, there are larger orifices available but as Engine Nut said, the fuel mapping would need adjustment.

trickskier
03-29-2007, 10:08 PM
Trickskier- I doubt that the one in the photo will do better than the one they come with. Yeah, there are larger orifices available but as Engine Nut said, the fuel mapping would need adjustment.
I would have to agree with you about the fuel maping JimN. I just wonder how they say you can bolt them on to a Corvette engine (without flashing the ECM) and gain 10-20 HP? From what they say they have more CFM's than stock throttle bodies.

Engine Nut
03-29-2007, 10:21 PM
I would have to agree with you about the fuel maping JimN. I just wonder how they say you can bolt them on to a Corvette engine (without flashing the ECM) and gain 10-20 HP? From what they say they have more CFM's than stock throttle bodies.

The automotive guys use a mass air flow sensor so they can actually measure the amount of air flow into the engine and make modifications to the fuel tables to compensate. Marine systems do not use these devices.

Engine Nut

trickskier
03-29-2007, 10:25 PM
The automotive guys use a mass air flow sensor so they can actually measure the amount of air flow into the engine and make modifications to the fuel tables to compensate. Marine systems do not use these devices.

Engine Nut
So the mass flow air sensor controls the amount of air to fuel ratio?

PendO
03-29-2007, 10:27 PM
A reprop is the route I will probably go. It's not that I need more power or speed b/c in my eyes the x45 has enough, it's just that knowing that your boat is the best it can be without going overboard is nice.

skip the re-prop ... do a re-engine:)

bigmac
03-29-2007, 10:51 PM
So the mass flow air sensor controls the amount of air to fuel ratio?
I'm sure JimN or Engine Nut can explain it better - I have to reach way back to medical school to remember this stuff...

The EFI mapping doesn't primarily regulate the Air/Fuel ratio, it primarily has to control how much air goes through the engine. EFI's do that by one of three ways -- one way is using throttle position and RPM to calculate engine load, with those various load/RPM points making up the lookup table, each cell of which has been programmed by somebody (probably EngineNut) to represent a certain fuel flow, the corresponding air flow being assumed. The second way is "speed density" which uses manifold air pressure (MAP) and RPM to figure engine load, and the much-more complex lookup table then is programmed to reflect the engine's air flow requirements. This is more sophisiticated because this method of figuring airflow allows a more complex lookup table which in turn allows more flexibility in programming to match the engine's volumetric efficiency. I believe this the system that's used in our boats' EFIs.

The thrid method uses a mass airflow sensor, which is mounted in front of the throttle body somewhere and actually measures the air going into the engine - that information along with that from a bunch of other sensors in turn again uses the computer's lookup table to determine how much fuel goes in, and what A/F ratio to use.

IOW, it's the info in that lookup table that the mfgr don't want us messing with, even to the point of encryption to keep us out - even if we did know what the heck we were doing if we were to get there...

Ric
03-29-2007, 11:23 PM
I'm sure JimN or Engine Nut can explain it better - I have to reach way back to medical school to remember this stuff...

The EFI mapping doesn't primarily regulate the Air/Fuel ratio, it primarily has to control how much air goes through the engine. EFI's do that by one of three ways -- one way is using throttle position and RPM to calculate engine load, with those various load/RPM points making up the lookup table, each cell of which has been programmed by somebody (probably EngineNut) to represent a certain fuel flow, the corresponding air flow being assumed. The second way is "speed density" which uses manifold air pressure (MAP) and RPM to figure engine load, and the much-more complex lookup table then is programmed to reflect the engine's air flow requirements. This is more sophisiticated because this method of figuring airflow allows a more complex lookup table which in turn allows more flexibility in programming to match the engine's volumetric efficiency. I believe this the system that's used in our boats' EFIs.

The thrid method uses a mass airflow sensor, which is mounted in front of the throttle body somewhere and actually measures the air going into the engine - that information along with that from a bunch of other sensors in turn again uses the computer's lookup table to determine how much fuel goes in, and what A/F ratio to use.

IOW, it's the info in that lookup table that the mfgr don't want us messing with, even to the point of encryption to keep us out - even if we did know what the heck we were doing if we were to get there... so the third description here is not what I call a closed loop system? That's how I understood it and of course why I understood there could be no simple programmers like on the street???????


oh and I also ASSUMED that there would be MAF on the new catx motors????

bigmac
03-29-2007, 11:51 PM
so the third description here is not what I call a closed loop system? That's how I understood it and of course why I understood there could be no simple programmers like on the street???????


oh and I also ASSUMED that there would be MAF on the new catx motors????


The MAF-based system is what is typically used in automobiles, and that is closed loop EFI. It's not typically used in boats, I'm guessing because of expense, delicacy, and maybe harsh airflow environment (guessing here). And Indmar doesn't really need that level of complexity to meet their engine's performance characteristics - (still guessing).

Speed-density (MAP) based systems can be closed loop too such as new Indmars, new Harleys...and other recreational vehicles that heretofore didn't have as rigid emission standards to meet. That all changed in 2007.

By the way, I mentioned in the other post that MAF-based closed-loop multisensor systems adjusted Air/Fuel ratio in addition to fuel flow. That's incorrect, basically. The A/F ratio is usually supposed to be maintained at 14.7:1.

Engine Nut
03-30-2007, 09:37 AM
The MAF-based system is what is typically used in automobiles, and that is closed loop EFI. It's not typically used in boats, I'm guessing because of expense, delicacy, and maybe harsh airflow environment (guessing here). And Indmar doesn't really need that level of complexity to meet their engine's performance characteristics - (still guessing).

Speed-density (MAP) based systems can be closed loop too such as new Indmars, new Harleys...and other recreational vehicles that heretofore didn't have as rigid emission standards to meet. That all changed in 2007.

By the way, I mentioned in the other post that MAF-based closed-loop multisensor systems adjusted Air/Fuel ratio in addition to fuel flow. That's incorrect, basically. The A/F ratio is usually supposed to be maintained at 14.7:1.

Big Mac, your information is correct. We use the speed density method in programming our fuel and spark tables. This method works fine for the marine environment. It is much less complex and has fewer parts to fail than in a MAF based system. Our new catalyst equipped engines run in closed loop, keeping the A/F ratio at a precise 14.7:1 under most conditions. They go out of closed loop during cold operation, during heavy acceleration or deacceleration and above 4400 RPM.

Part of our encryption of the data in our ECM is to keep unauthorized people from making modifications to the tables and part of it is to prevent our competitors from "borrowing" our calibrations and bypassing all the time that is required to develop them.

Engine Nut

trickskier
03-30-2007, 08:41 PM
Personally, I think the MCX has plenty of HP for my X-1. If more top end speed is what you're after I would experiment with props......:D

Chief
03-30-2007, 11:14 PM
Big Mac and Nut need to go work for NASA, I bet they could save the tax payers Billions!

Chief
03-30-2007, 11:15 PM
Personally, I think the MCX has plenty of HP for my X-1. If more top end speed is what you're after I would experiment with props......:D

I could use the 8.1 in mine since that thing turns into a PIG when loaded with people and ballast. Did I say I'm adding an additional 600lbs?

trickskier
03-30-2007, 11:16 PM
Big Mac and Nut need to go work for NASA, I bet they could save the tax payers Billions!
I agree anybody with common sense would save the tax payers billions!!! :D

trickskier
03-30-2007, 11:18 PM
I could use the 8.1 in mine since that thing turns into a PIG when loaded with people and ballast. Did I say I'm adding an additional 600lbs?
I know those 16oz BUDS helped the turning radius...............:friday:

FrankSchwab
03-31-2007, 01:50 AM
so the third description here is not what I call a closed loop system? That's how I understood it and of course why I understood there could be no simple programmers like on the street???????


oh and I also ASSUMED that there would be MAF on the new catx motors????

Actually, I believe that a "closed loop" system would be one that monitors the exhaust gasses, and uses that information to fine-tune the air-fuel mixture.

I believe that all three methods could be used in a closed-loop system - the engine computer uses Throttle position/RPM, or MAP/RPM, or MAF/RPM to take a good guess at the amount of fuel to squirt into the engine, then uses an Oxygen sensor in the exhaust to fine-tune the guess.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, also.

/frank

Ric
03-31-2007, 08:41 AM
Ya I guess that is where my limited motor knowledge took me too. closed loop always meant to me that they were monitoring exhaust gasses as well as air flow or air speed sensors tpi etc.. but until today, inboard motors couldn't monitor exhaust gasses because we selfish polluters were pumping water into our exhaust :o

bigmac
03-31-2007, 10:21 AM
Ya I guess that is where my limited motor knowledge took me too. closed loop always meant to me that they were monitoring exhaust gasses as well as air flow or air speed sensors tpi etc.. but until today, inboard motors couldn't monitor exhaust gasses because we selfish polluters were pumping water into our exhaust :o

Well, Indmar deserves a pat on the back for developing an O2 sensor that would work in a marine environment and allowing their EFI to go closed loop - I think they were the first marine company to do it to meet the current emissions standards.

I use Harley Davidson as an example because AFAIK they used the exact same Delphi ECM module for their EFI that MasterCraft uses. (I don't know about 2007).

Harley Davidson was on a little different emission schedule from the EPA, but they were resistant to going to closed loop because of the expense of changing their Screamin' Eagle line of aftermarket exhausts to units that would accomodate an O2 sensor. What they did instead was lean their A/F ratio down to ridiculous levels (IMHO) to meet emissions standards and rely on a bunch of sensors like detonation sensors to keep the engines from melting down. This really pi$$ed me off first time I rode my 2003 HD after coming off my tweaked-to-the-nuts 1996 carbed Softail, so the first thing I did was remap the ECM to get my air/fuel ration back to stoichiometric, 14.7:1. Eventually, the emissions schedule got to the point where HD had no choice but go closed loop in 2007. I note that they have completely stopped selling Screamin'Eagle aftermarket exhaust now.

Harley used to sell the Race Tuner (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/harleyefiracetunerkit.html), which anybody could buy, that was a $450 module that plugged directly into the ECU and allowed the owner to remap their ECU to their heart's content from their laptop. They don't sell that anymore. Dynojet still makes a $350 module (http://66.132.187.150/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_information.aspx) that plugs in-line with the ECU and takes over the ECU map. The owner can then manually change the fuel map, download a new fuel map from the internet to upload to the ECU, or have it done on a dyno. Obviously, no such thing exists for our boats, however.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/efiracetunerkit.jpg

WTRSK1R
03-31-2007, 10:56 AM
I'm sure JimN or Engine Nut can explain it better - I have to reach way back to medical school to remember this stuff...

...

Big Mac,
I did not know they taught EFI in medical school. :)

Seriously though, you guys know more about this stuff then can be documented. As always, your thorough explanations are amazing, and very helpful to those of us who quit working on engines when they started adding all the sensors.

Steve

bigmac
03-31-2007, 11:20 AM
Big Mac,
I did not know they taught EFI in medical school. :)

Seriously though, you guys know more about this stuff then can be documented. As always, your thorough explanations are amazing, and very helpful to those of us who quit working on engines when they started adding all the sensors.

SteveAt one time, I was a factory-trained MOPAR tech. Heh...that was high school/college and WAY before EFI but at that time I had a Mercedes 230 SL that I got cheap and rebuilt. I spent a lot of time on the then-state-of-the-art Bosch mechanical fuel injection.

My son and I do a lot of tinkering around with this stuff too. He has, or is in the process of getting, 5 or 6 AD's in various automotive things between Wyotech and UTI. Currently he's in Phoenix at MMI finishing up Harley Davidson then going to Yamaha. I learn a lot from him.

Ric
03-31-2007, 11:24 AM
stoichiometric is one of my favorite words in the whole wide world

Engine Nut
03-31-2007, 01:46 PM
Ya I guess that is where my limited motor knowledge took me too. closed loop always meant to me that they were monitoring exhaust gasses as well as air flow or air speed sensors tpi etc.. but until today, inboard motors couldn't monitor exhaust gasses because we selfish polluters were pumping water into our exhaust :o

We measure the exhaust gasses before they go into the catalyst with an O2 sensor and the ECM holds the sequential port injectors open a little longer if it senses a lean mixture or closes them a little sooner if it senses a rich mixture. In 08 we will have a sensor behind the catalyst as well that will measure EGT to verify that the catalyst is operating. We are currently the only manufacturer to be running catalysts on our engines. We are happy to be providing this technology to the best boat manufacturers and customers in the ski boat arena.

Engine Nut

bigmac
03-31-2007, 02:15 PM
In 08 we will have a sensor behind the catalyst as well that will measure EGT to verify that the catalyst is operating.
Engine Nut

Cool. Indmar rocks.

Is that new O2 sensor a performance thing or an emissions thing? I assume the latter, but does it have any performance implications?

Engine Nut
03-31-2007, 02:25 PM
Cool. Indmar rocks.

Is that new O2 sensor a performance thing or an emissions thing? I assume the latter, but does it have any performance implications?

The new sensor after the catalyst is for emissions but it won't be an O2sensor. It looks like it will be a thermocouple so we can monitor exahust gas temperature post catalyst. We have not been able to get an O2 sensor to live post catalyst. They can tolerate some moisture but do not like getting wet which is a good possibility after the catalyst.

The design of our exhaust manifold is what allowed us to put a catalyst in the system without losing performance from the engine.

Engine Nut

Ric
03-31-2007, 02:27 PM
INdmar Rocks.

it was so cool seeing all the indmar trucks as we trekked from Nashville to Vonore and back again...

Off topic, but what new boat maker is not using indmars?