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east tx skier
01-10-2005, 05:51 PM
So has anyone thought of retrofitting MTS to his older prostar? Some lead blocks would probably make a much more economical solution. I haven't seen 180 lb fat sacks on the market. Not a lot of room directly under the observer seat, but has anyone messed with this.

Any links to the lead block supplier? I'll bet shipping is rough.

milkmania
01-10-2005, 06:11 PM
So has anyone thought of retrofitting MTS to his older prostar? Some lead blocks would probably make a much more economical solution. I haven't seen 180 lb fat sacks on the market. Not a lot of room directly under the observer seat, but has anyone messed with this.

Any links to the lead block supplier? I'll bet shipping is rough.
if you inject the lead blocks with air....they won't weigh as much:purplaugh

back on subject, no, I haven't

BrianM
01-10-2005, 06:13 PM
I have thought about doing the same thing. My '88 Prostar is very suseptible to changes in weight. Enough so that the wake is pretty lopsided with just a diver in the boat. I hate the idea of lugging weight into and out of the boat and have looked around a bit at parts to put together a custom system. I wanted to put together something with a hard tank but in order to get the right amount of wieght you need something that holds 22 gallons of water and that takes a lot of space. I fat sac would be nice because then it wouldn't take up much space when not in use but no one makes a sac that small. The smallest I have seen is 500 lb. Let me know if you come up with something that works or find a source for a smaller sac. I would love to make this mod.

BrianM
01-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Just did a little searching again after my last post and came up with these http://www.wakeboat.com/catalog/detail.lasso?cat=48&man=Launch%20Pad&sku=LA_b1Rw8 85 lb fat sacs basicly. Two of these might be the ticket. Put these together in an integrated system so you don't have to fiddle with a pump all of the time. Now we are talking.

east tx skier
01-10-2005, 06:21 PM
A quick search taught me that the "lead weight" idea has been discussed a lot on the Malibu board.

The upside of lead is that it is the best size:weight ratio. Among the downsides is rust on the carpet if it gets wet, toxicity, its heavy and harder to move around, and shipping costs.

Most of those guys seem to be doing the following. Getting lead from scrap yards and wrapping it in carpet or having it coated with bedliner. Buying shot bags from tent companies (those things that hold the tent stakes down) and getting them filled with lead shot at the local gun store.

If you do a search on the 'bu board for "lead weight," you'll see quite a few threads about this with links to suppliers. But unless you can go pick it up, shipping isn't cheap.

As for water ballast, have you considered going beneath the floor (under the observer seat) or is that a bad idea for structural reasons. I keep wondering if that's where MC has the MTS ballast.

BrianM
01-10-2005, 06:26 PM
I thought about under the floor but from what I can tell that would require Major surgery. I am not willing to go that far and get that involved for it. These water blocks might be my answer.

east tx skier
01-10-2005, 06:32 PM
The shot bags at this website look more promising. They're double lined (neoprene over plastic).

I seem to remember the figure of $30 for a 50 lb bag before shipping, but that may have been a group buy. These guys were going for more weight for wakeboarding.

http://www.metaltecsteel.com/gen_info/product_shotbags.htm

BrianM
01-10-2005, 07:03 PM
I remember seeing those when that thread started on MBO. Those would work prettty well too. Three 50lb bags would probably do it but shipping 150lbs would be spendy.

AirJunky
01-10-2005, 07:16 PM
I got a hold of a ton of old tire lead from a buddy who works at a tire shop. We melted it all down & poured it into molds we made out of 2"x4"s. Each "brick" weighs about 30 lbs. & is carpeted with black rubberized turf & LiquidNails. Their just the right height to slide under the gunnels, hide in the bow seats, etc. Plus I got two 2' long slabs of "pig iron" (about 125 lbs each) which is ballast for big ships. Wrapped it in plastic & duck taped it all up. Their sitting between the back seat & the gas tank. Add to that a fat sack in the ski locker. Grand total about 800 lbs. The boat sits about 4" lower in the water & kicks up a medium sized, fairly hard, well defined wake. Yet it still handles pretty good, does hot pickups & Around the Boats easily, & it's all hidden out of sight.
Boarders & foilers alike seem to like it with several riders having their best runs ever behind it over the years.

DanC
01-10-2005, 07:26 PM
There are a variety of water ballast bags out there. Fat Buddies are about 250 lbs each. A custom ballast bag will not cost you much more than a production bag (depends on the number of valves mostly), still only about $100.
I have used water bed tubes, less than $40 each. About 5 feet long and about 10-12" diameter. Bought them at the local Pacific Waterbed store, also available at on-line stores. I used to fit them in the side pocket and fill the bag to fit the space (watch out for protruding screws, I had to go inside with a grinder :mad: ). They worked ok but took up space. They were just the right weight so that I could just manage to get one end up and over the side to empty.
I'm not too fond of lugging 50 lb bricks of lead in my boat. One bump up against fiberglass and guess who loses. Not to mention fingers and toes.
I think for the MTS type of thing the lead shot bags would work well. Easier to move and distribute, no hard corners, molds to different locations like a bean bag chair. You could place them as far as possible to the side (right up against the side hull) and get the most leverage for leveling for the least amount of weight. I don't think lead rusts? Coated steel shot would be a worry. Most shooting supply houses here sell it for $1 to $.60 a pound. I bet Texas is a lot cheaper :uglyhamme
Forget about buying lead and having it shipped.

Ric
01-10-2005, 07:32 PM
The shot bags at this website look more promising. They're double lined (neoprene over plastic).

I seem to remember the figure of $30 for a 50 lb bag before shipping, but that may have been a group buy. These guys were going for more weight for wakeboarding.

http://www.metaltecsteel.com/gen_info/product_shotbags.htm
Had MTS on my 190 and it was very handy
my dealer mistakenly told me it wasn't available on 197 so I didnt order it BUT CDickey has installed one himself and may be able to tell you if it'll fit in earlier models too.
I have skiid with guys who used cast free weights laid on the passenger side but they do get rusty.
They carpeted one side of them but it's still not perfect

Here is a pic of the MTS from my 190

crdickey
01-10-2005, 08:50 PM
Yes, I did install MTS in my 2003 PS-197. The foot print is different than for a 190 because the underseat storage compartments are different. It was fairly easy to install because it comes as a package from MC. Mine looks like the above pic but a little wider and not as long because of the bow seats.

It cost me $800.00 and came with the tank, pump, dash toggle switch, 2" dash gauge, wiring harness, hoses, fittings and through hull strainer, etc.

The coolest part is that you can fill or empty it on the fly to balance the wake perfectly. It will put up to 180# of water in a hard tank up against the hull under the passenger seat.

One of the best options MC has for slalom skiing IMHO. No need for musical chairs, pinched or smashed toes, rust, etc.

east tx skier
01-10-2005, 11:16 PM
Does it go beneath the seat or beneath the deck? What are the dimensions of the tank. I don't think I'd have enough room for that beneath the seat. It's a 20 gallon tank, right?

Ric
01-11-2005, 10:53 AM
It fits under the deck
I know my earlier pic is awkward but you are looking into the storage of the 190 with the obs seat raised. It eats up some room for sure.
Here is a pic of Chucks in an open bow

east tx skier
01-11-2005, 11:06 AM
Ric, I'd say that the picture of Chuck's is not under the deck. I'm just making sure we have our terminology right. I'd say that's under the seat, but above the deck. When I say under the deck, I mean, that to see it, I've got to open the motorbox and stick my head into the bilge with a flashlight. Can you confirm the factory placement.

With an early 90s PS205, looking at Chuck's picture, I'm guessing that a factory setup will not work if I want to put anything else under the seat (and may not work at all.

Ric
01-11-2005, 12:50 PM
ok I consider it on top of the floor(or deck if I have it wrong) I had considered the deck to be the area where the windshield & dashpod are mounted & includes the gunwales, etc.
I would say the factory location for mts is "behind the observer seat and mounted to the port side of the storage area, under the glove box and sitting primarily on the floor of the storage area"

east tx skier
01-11-2005, 01:25 PM
Thanks, I got it now. I'm guessing that'd have to be at least 18-20 gallons based on the weight of the tank. Interestingly, overtons sells a side mounted gas tank for $100 (its shape is meant to fit on the side). Of course, you don't get the guage and other nifty parts.

Ric
01-11-2005, 01:47 PM
Thanks, I got it now. I'm guessing that'd have to be at least 18-20 gallons based on the weight of the tank. Interestingly, overtons sells a side mounted gas tank for $100 (its shape is meant to fit on the side). Of course, you don't get the guage and other nifty parts.
dont know about gallons, but just last night I noticed that all the time I owned that boat, I never had a gage, just a switch for a pump. looking at my own damn pics I realize that there was a sender mounted on top of that tank all along! All I had to do was get the gage and hook it up :uglyhamme

east tx skier
01-11-2005, 03:18 PM
The guage is the coolest part. I think I've read that a gallon of water is 8.33 lbs (just so you know where I'm getting my 18-20 gallon guess).

rem_pss308
01-11-2005, 03:19 PM
Hey Guys,
Here is my input.
We wakeboard a lot so I did research on ballast. We use fat sacs that we fill with a jabsco pump thru the hull. You could also tie into the hose that feeds water to the engine. I didnt want to take a chance of the engine not getting enough water. Other have done it, and they say when idleing there is no temp change in engine.
You can have a custom sac made here: http://www.gethighsports.net/

If you want to use lead. ( lead wont rust )
I would do like above and mold my own.
Tire dealers, auto shops have tons of wheel weights. Most will give them to you . Go to wal-mart, Dollar store or what ever you have there, and get a rectangle, round, square, cake pan. Lead can be melted on the stove in a frying pan.( a disposable one), but I would do it outside on a gas burner due to lead poisoning. When melting it, there will be trash at the top. You scape this off, and pour your lead into the mold, and let cool. When cool. you can paint it, or leave it.

Another option is your local dive shop. They have 5 lb lead shot bags. The bags are made of nylon mesh( so water will drain)

Hope this helps some.

east tx skier
01-11-2005, 05:07 PM
By the way, Jim@BAWS, emailed you back with questions. Thanks for the email.

east tx skier
03-03-2006, 05:52 PM
Time to bring this one back.

Ric, can you put the picture back on there?

Also, where did the stock system tap in for the fill pump? What about emptying?

rodltg2
03-03-2006, 06:08 PM
just fill a 5 gal bucket with concrete about 75% full. you set it next to the engine compartment and your set. easy to pull it out and set on the dock when you have an observer..

east tx skier
03-03-2006, 06:12 PM
Well, just talked to my dealer who described the whole thing with plumbing an integrated tank as "pretty labor intensive." They make 150 fat sacs with handles that I can get for $99. That, plus a pump will be cheap and easy enough.

Dealer told me a story once about a guy who literally poured concrete into some molds he'd set up across the entire rear of the boat aft of the motorbox. When he bent his shaft and took the boat for repair, he didn't bother to remove all the concrete or mention it when he dropped it off. Dealer charged for the time to remove it to access the shaft. Can't say I blame them.

tommcat
03-03-2006, 06:24 PM
fly high will custom make any size/shape sac you want and the cost is about the same as for a standard sac.

http://www.barefootinternational.com/

east tx skier
03-03-2006, 06:51 PM
Thanks, Tommcat. I am still toying with the idea of a hardtank though. Wakeworld has a how-to with a revserible pump tapped off the raw water intake line. Drains there, too. As I'm only pulling, at most, 20 gallons, I don't think I'd be worried about depriving the engine of any needed water to cool it.

The only thing my dealer mentioned was that, with a hard tank, you need to think about the air you're going to displace. Do these gas tanks come with bleeder valves or is that handled with the type of fitting to the tank?

rodltg2
03-03-2006, 07:09 PM
another solution eastie would be, worry more about your skiing, improve so as to run 35off and shorter . you'll be in front of the wake and it wont matter anymore... :D

Ric
03-03-2006, 08:37 PM
another solution eastie would be, worry more about your skiing, improve so as to run 35off and shorter . you'll be in front of the wake and it wont matter anymore... :D
somebody google the ballast blocks (square bags) I've seen for sale, they look like they'd be perfect as MTS alternatives

here is the mts from an 00 190

Ric
03-03-2006, 08:41 PM
I cannot find chuck's pics on my machine

east tx skier
03-03-2006, 10:08 PM
another solution eastie would be, worry more about your skiing, improve so as to run 35off and shorter . you'll be in front of the wake and it wont matter anymore... :D

You think too much of my abilities and ambition, Rod. Plus, anybody can get to 35 off on an imperfect wake. It's like cheating. ;)

Ric, you wouldn't happen to remember the dimensions on that bad boy, would you.? Just went out and measured and really think space is going to limit me. I may just go for the 150 # Fat Brick (http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/wakeboard_boat_ballast_bags/fly_high_fat_brick_W702) and call it a day (that is if my trip to the dive shop tomorrow doesn't bear fruit. It's still fun to think about it though. Did it have an overflow vent?

I know you probably don't remember any of it at this point.

east tx skier
03-03-2006, 10:12 PM
I cannot find chuck's pics on my machine

Can't find Chuck's on mine either.

Maristar210
03-03-2006, 10:38 PM
A quick search taught me that the "lead weight" idea has been discussed a lot on the Malibu board.

The upside of lead is that it is the best size:weight ratio. Among the downsides is rust on the carpet if it gets wet, toxicity, its heavy and harder to move around, and shipping costs.

Most of those guys seem to be doing the following. Getting lead from scrap yards and wrapping it in carpet or having it coated with bedliner. Buying shot bags from tent companies (those things that hold the tent stakes down) and getting them filled with lead shot at the local gun store.

If you do a search on the 'bu board for "lead weight," you'll see quite a few threads about this with links to suppliers. But unless you can go pick it up, shipping isn't cheap.

As for water ballast, have you considered going beneath the floor (under the observer seat) or is that a bad idea for structural reasons. I keep wondering if that's where MC has the MTS ballast.



ETS,

FWIW-
I filled five double lined can liners with sand, weighed it up to 150# and placed it in a CCM hockey bag under the observer seat. Intstantly fixed the issue of "crooked" wake. This was after I looked into everything mentioned above. The heavy handled bag makes it easy to move around and it was less than $20.

Good Luck

Steve

rodltg2
03-03-2006, 11:55 PM
You think too much of my abilities and ambition, Rod. Plus, anybody can get to 35 off on an imperfect wake. It's like cheating. ;)

Ric, you wouldn't happen to remember the dimensions on that bad boy, would you.? Just went out and measured and really think space is going to limit me. I may just go for the 150 # Fat Brick (http://www.wakeside.com/page/W/PROD/wakeboard_boat_ballast_bags/fly_high_fat_brick_W702) and call it a day (that is if my trip to the dive shop tomorrow doesn't bear fruit. It's still fun to think about it though. Did it have an overflow vent?

I know you probably don't remember any of it at this point.


i just like giving you a hard time!

River Rat
03-03-2006, 11:58 PM
I heard of people packing kids back packs with sand bags easy in and out

east tx skier
03-04-2006, 12:00 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions (even Rod ;)). It's amazing how little space there is under an old 205 observer seat. I'm sure one of these things will be just the ticket.

rodltg2
03-04-2006, 12:01 AM
you could always just bring a friend , better yet a slimmie

SteveO
03-04-2006, 09:14 AM
you could always just bring a friend , better yet a slimmie

Good thing about TX is they do not require an observer. Not need to find a third and more water time. Makes those early morning prework runs worth the trip. Bad news is, it can leave you mis-weighted. I use one of the straight line "blocks" on the passenger side back corner.

east tx skier
03-04-2006, 09:53 AM
SteveO, you got an 85 lb driver? ;)

I'm really eyeing the fat bricks. That looks to be the ticket.

Now what's a good pump for the least money that will empty and fill. I see them for $40 on ebay. Those worth a rip?

SteveO
03-04-2006, 10:33 AM
No 85 lb dirver, which is why I put the "block" in the back. Somebody told me that it takes less than a 1:1 if you put it back their? I have the Tsunami from Fly High which is awesome for my other wakeboard sacs, but over kill for the block. I imagine most any pump would be fine for what you are looking to do.

BrianM
03-04-2006, 10:43 AM
Did you try to source on of the hard tanks and gauge? Wonder what the cost is on them from MC? Jim or MyMC care to give me a cost on these two things? PM would be good. That would really be the ticket. Get pumps and other fittings from other sources local. This thread coming up again has me thinking about this as well for the '97. It isn't near as sensitive to weight as the '88 was but it would still be a slick setup.

rodltg2
03-04-2006, 12:00 PM
even wiht a 230lb ski partner i hardley notice any difference..

Ric
03-04-2006, 01:56 PM
There was a vent. I don't remember the dimensions though.

east tx skier
03-04-2006, 06:56 PM
Did you try to source on of the hard tanks and gauge? Wonder what the cost is on them from MC? Jim or MyMC care to give me a cost on these two things? PM would be good. That would really be the ticket. Get pumps and other fittings from other sources local. This thread coming up again has me thinking about this as well for the '97. It isn't near as sensitive to weight as the '88 was but it would still be a slick setup.

The whole deal, per Chuck's post, was $800. The tank in Ric's post looks to be like one of those angled gas tanks. Around $100 for a 20 gallon.

There is a 20 gallon fresh water holding tank on ebay right now (2 actually) for around $80 including shipping. Sorry, no link. There's a how to on wakesiderides.com that has it drawing and draining through a fitting on the bilge plug. On wakeworld, they've got it rigged up with a reversible pump from south of the transmission cooler.

Gotta go, wife is calling.

6ballsisall
03-05-2006, 11:57 AM
even wiht a 230lb ski partner i hardley notice any difference..

That cuz you have a bu' the wake sucks already :D

east tx skier
03-05-2006, 12:44 PM
On some of the older boats, where spray is still a factor, a heavy driver seems to increase the spray on the starboard side.

While skiing behind another boat with a 225 lb driver and a slight breeze, I've been hit with spray at 15 off.

6ballsisall
03-05-2006, 01:32 PM
On some of the older boats, where spray is still a factor, a heavy driver seems to increase the spray on the starboard side.

While skiing behind another boat with a 225 lb driver and a slight breeze, I've been hit with spray at 15 off.

Tru Dat! On my 86' with a driver who weighed in at about 250 and an observer who weighed in at 110lbs. the boat really sat funny in the water. The spray at 15' off with that scenario was brutal!

east tx skier
03-05-2006, 02:31 PM
Not so much an issue on the newer MCs. Although I've heard about it, I've still not every run across anyone who did the spray mod on their 91-94 prostar (not that shortline spray is something I have to contend with).

east tx skier
03-06-2006, 12:08 AM
Just noticed Chuck is online. Hey, Chuck, do you still have that picture?

Kevin 89MC
03-06-2006, 11:53 AM
Been following this thread too. I agree ETS, the "brick" is probably the easiest/cheapest way to go. I'm planning on using one of my fatsacks. I have the cheap pump for that, and it fills kinda slow, but probably not too bad for only 180 lbs or so.
The spray & unbalanced wake are very prominent on mine, but not noticeable at all (to us) on my B-I-L's '99 190. Into the wind, spray hits me in the face at 15 off behind mine sometimes!

BrianM
11-19-2007, 03:24 PM
Bumping this up to the top. I am seriously considering finally actually doing an MTS system this winter. Anyone with an MTS willing to measure the dimensions of the tank? I have to believe it can be done for less than $800. Probably more like $500 when all is said and done. I am thinking of just doing it without the gauge and custom wiring harness. So that would require:
-Hard Tank which is $166 from MYMC
-Mounting brackets (about $20 total from MYMC
-Ballast Pump (reversible) $250 which includes switch.
-Two through hull fittings (1 for intake and drain 1 for vent)
-Hose to connect it all up
-A little wire
Seems like I could build that system for about $500

east tx skier
11-19-2007, 03:30 PM
From when I noodled this before, I think it was around 20 gallons to get 180 lbs. Have you considered those gas tanks designed to fit up against the hull? Ric's MTS appeared to be the standard block shape. One of those shaped tanks might yield you some more room if you care about that sort of thing. Then again, having it that far over against the hull might not be where you want your weight (coming from someone who has to think of various nice ways to tell people to "stay out of the corner").

/edit. Nevermind. It's a wedge shape.

BrianM
11-19-2007, 03:49 PM
I am thinking a custom bag that has permenant plumbing may be the way to go. That way when it is not in use the bag will be deflated allowing more storage if necessary. 20 gallons is about the right size. A quick Google search finds that 1 gallon of water takes up 231 cubic inches of space. So if I were to have a wedge shapped bag made that was 16x18x32 that should give me almost exactly 20 gallons. 16x18x32 divided by 2 (since it is a wedge) = 4608 cubic inches divided by 231 = 19.94 gallons. That ought to work out perfect. That size seems like it would work well in the bow against the left side just like the MTS hard tank. The only thing I am worried about is will this bag roll off the side of the boat? Wonder if I can hold it in position with a couple of straps?

east tx skier
11-19-2007, 04:10 PM
Another option is to put a tube bag behind the combing pads. The holiday inn express part of me thinksthat with placement behind the driver, you might not need as much weight to offset.

BrianM
11-19-2007, 04:21 PM
Another option is to put a tube bag behind the combing pads. The holiday inn express part of me thinksthat with placement behind the driver, you might not need as much weight to offset.
Not really enough room back there. That space is pretty narrow although you might be able to get a custom bag made that would fit the space. I would have to move my shower pump to do that though.

I'm thinking a wedge shapped bag would flop over. Probably have to do a square shape. 16x16x20. They make the Fat Buddies that are 155lbs but that may not be enough weight sometimes.

east tx skier
11-19-2007, 04:48 PM
What about waterbed tubes?

Harvey
11-19-2007, 05:02 PM
Guys, guys, guys you are making this too hard. Just call/email Mike and he can get you a sac custom made. I bet you don't spend $150 to get a custom fit sack to your needs. http://fatsac.com/ If you can't get ahold of him get your local dealer to call them and get you one.

Ric
11-19-2007, 05:25 PM
I am thinking a custom bag that has permenant plumbing may be the way to go. That way when it is not in use the bag will be deflated allowing more storage if necessary. 20 gallons is about the right size. A quick Google search finds that 1 gallon of water takes up 231 cubic inches of space. So if I were to have a wedge shapped bag made that was 16x18x32 that should give me almost exactly 20 gallons. 16x18x32 divided by 2 (since it is a wedge) = 4608 cubic inches divided by 231 = 19.94 gallons. That ought to work out perfect. That size seems like it would work well in the bow against the left side just like the MTS hard tank. The only thing I am worried about is will this bag roll off the side of the boat? Wonder if I can hold it in position with a couple of straps? I think this is the way to go

east tx skier
11-19-2007, 05:30 PM
Either that, or you could get one of those "companion dolls" afixed to the observer seat and fill it with water instead of air. It'd make for a better picture and wouldn't take up any storage space.

Ric
11-19-2007, 05:35 PM
and with easties plan nobody would be laughing and pointing at you anymore Brian! win/win

east tx skier
11-19-2007, 05:36 PM
and with easties plan nobody would be laughing and pointing at you anymore Brian! win/win

I wonder what the volume of one of those observers is. UMP, can you help us out there? ;)

As far as deployment, I'm envisioning something along the lines of Otto, the automatic pilot from the movie Airplane!

Ric
11-19-2007, 05:38 PM
now you are tugging on superman's cape

H20skeefreek
01-20-2008, 10:43 AM
talking about this over here http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?p=447876#post447876

if you are interested. input would be welcome.