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Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2007, 11:52 AM
Around here, we have some towns going to a smoking ban in public places, and others against it, and some that have used the ban and are now reconsidering. It appears to me, because the businesses lose to neighboring communities that have not taken the ban into effect (yet or won't)
I should say until it becomes statewide (if in my lifetime).

I am a lifelong non-smoker (I suppose that is redundant:rolleyes: ), so I have my own opinions..but what do you think, and have you been effected by anything similar.

Ric
01-26-2007, 11:58 AM
off topic but current... my kids and I were rolling down the road last nite talking about elementary school play tryouts... One felt that 4th graders were never chosen for the play, only 5th graders... so we discussed the possible reasons.. one said, maybe they beat 4th graders down so they won't try out next year?
she was kinda kidding but I analogized how that wouldnt work, for obvious reasons and used the smoking nazi example..

it made me think how jeuvenile the argument is that tobacco companies intend to kill their customers...


Lifelong non-smoker here

Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2007, 12:16 PM
Is that like the automobile manufacturers doing what they can to save the environment?

H20skeefreek
01-26-2007, 01:14 PM
I have read numerous studies that say that business usually INCREASES at bars and restaurants b/c non-smokers are willing to go to them. I think that the "losing" business is just an excuse for smokers to keep a spot where they can smoke (and poison the rest of us). The bottom line is that smokers don't realize how much it infringes on other's right to NOT smoke by excercising thier right to smoke, until they quit themselves, then they can't stand it either.

BrianM
01-26-2007, 01:17 PM
Around here, we have some towns going to a smoking ban in public places, and others against it, and some that have used the ban and are now reconsidering. It appears to me, because the businesses lose to neighboring communities that have not taken the ban into effect (yet or won't)
I should say until it becomes statewide (if in my lifetime).

I am a lifelong non-smoker (I suppose that is redundant:rolleyes: ), so I have my own opinions..but what do you think, and have you been effected by anything similar.



They just banned smoking in resturaunts as of the first of the year here in Louisiana. Glad they did it. I never thought I would see it done here but apparently pigs can now fly.:rolleyes:

I wish they would take the next step and ban it in bars and casinos as well. I have to say that is one thing I like about going back to California. I can go to a bar and drink all night without waking up the next morining feeling like I had smoked a pack of cigarettes.

Maristar210
01-26-2007, 01:18 PM
I have read numerous studies that say that business usually INCREASES at bars and restaurants b/c non-smokers are willing to go to them. I think that the "losing" business is just an excuse for smokers to keep a spot where they can smoke (and poison the rest of us). The bottom line is that smokers don't realize how much it infringes on other's right to NOT smoke by excercising thier right to smoke, until they quit themselves, then they can't stand it either.


I agree. I was at a local establishment last evening enjoying a tall cold draft beer. After I ran this am (penance) I went to get dressed and nearly gagged at the smell coming from the Chlothes I wore last evening that were in my laundry room. WOW does that ever stink.

sanjuan23
01-26-2007, 01:21 PM
After the first of this year they banned smoking in all bars and resturants here in Arlington unless they had invested the est. 100k for the filtration system or food orders did not constitute more than 25% of their business. Now that I have been smoke free for the better part of the month we went out to a watering hole last night with some friends and I gotta tell you I never really noticed the smell that bad until this morning. Couldnt tell if it was the leftover booze triggering the gag reflex of the smell... Yeah it was the smell. What in the world was I ever thinking.

mitch
01-26-2007, 01:22 PM
I don't smoke, but it doesn't bother me a bit. I say let em smoke in bars, it'll help the owners. Hey somebody had to take the other side8p

H20skeefreek
01-26-2007, 01:46 PM
I don't smoke, but it doesn't bother me a bit. I say let em smoke in bars, it'll help the owners. Hey somebody had to take the other side8p
That's the thing, it doesn't help them. There business will increase if they make it non-smoking.

Here's a good example: Wild Wings Cafe near my house, 2/3 of the restaurant is smoking, the other 1/3 non-smoking. On the weekends there is a HUGE line outside waiting for a table. If you walk up and ask how long the wait is, you can have a seat if you will sit in the smoking section, an hour wait for non-smoking. YET, this guy that owns the restaurant, goes to the public forums to argue against a smoking ban. He's says his business will suffer by 50%. What a moron. Evidently he's never been to his own restaurant on a weekend.

Leroy
01-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Not a smoker and glad to see the laws go into effect. At my last job when the campus went smoke free (you had to leave the site or smoke in your car) many quit. Statistically smoking is becoming more and more a habit of the poor and uneducated. At my new job we have a small factory and many of them smoke and almost none of the professional staff smoke.

From: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4559
Studies show that smoking prevalence is higher among those who had earned a GED diploma (39.6 percent) and among those with 9-11 years of education (34.0 percent) compared with those with more than 16 years of education (8.0 percent). It's highest among persons living below the poverty level (29.1 percent).

Ric
01-26-2007, 02:08 PM
Is that like the automobile manufacturers doing what they can to save the environment? no it's more like blaming the automakers for intending to harm the environment

jrcarte78
01-26-2007, 02:23 PM
Do we really NEED the government to regulate this for us. Why can't we leave this decision up to the business owner and the consumer? If a proprietor doesn't want to allow smoking in his/her establishment--so be it. They will suffer the consequences/reap the rewards for their decision. If you hate smoke, don't go to a restaurant/bar that allows it. I just get really frustrated when the government, whether it's federal, state, or local, starts to take business owners' rights away "for the public good". We still do have a capitalist system don't we?? :twocents:

I do not smoke.

J.R.

H20skeefreek
01-26-2007, 02:31 PM
It's not "for the public good" as in for public health, but to protect the rights of everyone. In this country I have the right to do just about anything, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, which smoking in public does. I have the right to go out in public and not smoke, since I'm a non-smoker. If I want to smoke, I'll take it up at home. I don't know why anyone would want to smell like a butt though.

Ric
01-26-2007, 02:37 PM
look, once we kill all the smokers, we will be smarter, more productive and alot better smelling as a nation

3event
01-26-2007, 03:19 PM
I think FREEK is right, owners have no clue how smokelessness could help their businesses. Not all (probably not bowling alleys:) ) I lean toward non-regulation, but I just can not believe there are virtually NO smokeless restaurants around here.

Our gov (WI) just proposed a statewide ban for places of work, I hear. As a remedy to some limited locales that have bans, and neighboring towns that don't. There is one GLARING problem: he exempts the Indian casinos which happen to be the largest contributors to his reelection campaigns by far.

I am not going to argue against a ban. BUT NO EXEMPTIONS !

djhuff
01-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Do we really NEED the government to regulate this for us. Why can't we leave this decision up to the business owner and the consumer? If a proprietor doesn't want to allow smoking in his/her establishment--so be it. They will suffer the consequences/reap the rewards for their decision. If you hate smoke, don't go to a restaurant/bar that allows it. I just get really frustrated when the government, whether it's federal, state, or local, starts to take business owners' rights away "for the public good". We still do have a capitalist system don't we??

DING DING DING we have a winner.

Banning smoking on state, local, or federal lands is fine, but to tell a PRIVATE business owner (even if it is open to the public) that they cannot allow smoking inside is borderline Socialist.

If you don't like it... Don't go.

I don't mind it. But there are restaurants who allow (or cater to) young children runnig around making a racket... I don't like it, so I don't go there. I know this example is not a public health issue, but you get what I am saying.

mitch
01-26-2007, 03:28 PM
That's the thing, it doesn't help them. There business will increase if they make it non-smoking.

Here's a good example: Wild Wings Cafe near my house, 2/3 of the restaurant is smoking, the other 1/3 non-smoking. On the weekends there is a HUGE line outside waiting for a table. If you walk up and ask how long the wait is, you can have a seat if you will sit in the smoking section, an hour wait for non-smoking. YET, this guy that owns the restaurant, goes to the public forums to argue against a smoking ban. He's says his business will suffer by 50%. What a moron. Evidently he's never been to his own restaurant on a weekend.


he must know something, or why would he argue against the ban, makes no sense. It's the bar money they miss, and from what some local owners have told me over the years, is that it does affect their bottom line.

bcampbe7
01-26-2007, 03:32 PM
We have discussed the possibility of banning smoking on Team Talk.
We are just trying to finalize the design for the web-water canon that will extinguish your cig should you be on TT and smoking. :rolleyes: :D

djhuff
01-26-2007, 03:33 PM
Also talk to waiters and waitresses and ask who tips more... smoking or non. Everyone I know says that the smokers tip higher (not even close)

Ric
01-26-2007, 03:47 PM
We have discussed the possibility of banning smoking on Team Talk.
We are just trying to finalize the design for the web-water canon that will extinguish your cig should you be on TT and smoking. :rolleyes: :D FASCISTS .

trickskier
01-26-2007, 03:53 PM
FL voted in No Smoking in all restuarants several years ago. It passed by 77%. No Smoking in all public buildings including airports was placed into effect about 10 years ago.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2007, 04:00 PM
With the ban in effect (sort of)..I have been going out to eat alot more often than normal, I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I hope with time, the businesses will realize it's beneficial to everyone for them not to allow smoking. I think time will tell and if it stays in effect, the nonsmokers will start attending some establishments because there is no smoking.
Previous to the ban, I had trouble finding non-smoking facilities, but when I did, I was certain to tell them how much I appreciated it.

I can not say I am for the "ban" "law", I just wish there was a way to stop it by other means. It only takes one chokestick within a particular establishment to create an issue. And they (the chokestick puffer8p ) just doesn't understand.

Ric
01-26-2007, 04:05 PM
wife and I went to lunch in a sportsbar kinda outfit locally recently.

nitwit at the stand says, smoking or non? we say non.

place is sparse with customers but einstein literally walks us past 20 empty tables to set us next to a puffer... Wifey says, can we sit over there? uh ya, well I guess.. it was funnier than it looks on this post I promise

shepherd
01-26-2007, 04:09 PM
Do we really NEED the government to regulate this for us. Why can't we leave this decision up to the business owner and the consumer? If a proprietor doesn't want to allow smoking in his/her establishment--so be it. They will suffer the consequences/reap the rewards for their decision. If you hate smoke, don't go to a restaurant/bar that allows it. I just get really frustrated when the government, whether it's federal, state, or local, starts to take business owners' rights away "for the public good". We still do have a capitalist system don't we?? :twocents:

I do not smoke.

J.R.

I'm with jr ^^ here. Just what we need, more pinheads in elected office trying to tell us what is best for us. Let the owners of the private establishments figure it out for themselves. If you don't like the smell of smoke, don't patronize places that allow it. If someone blows smoke in your face, ask him to put it out. If he keeps blowing smoke in your face, knock him out and claim self defense.

Jesus_Freak
01-26-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm with jr ^^ here. Just what we need, more pinheads in elected office trying to tell us what is best for us. Let the owners of the private establishments figure it out for themselves.

Absolutely, but we allow (and sometimes need) someone to help us make decisions regarding other issues. For example, there is correlation between death and driving drunk, driving 120MPH in a 35, running stop signs, skiing while on crack, etc. Therefore, these are not legal. Where do we draw the line on what is legislated?

Rapunzl
01-26-2007, 04:29 PM
Okay...

As a nurse, you don't need to know what my opinion is! I will tell you, however, that I have cared for children with lung cancer (no...they were not smokers...)...and it's UGLY.

That said, I live in sunny California where the state has banned smoking in all enclosed public places, and what a difference it has made. I went to Vegas with some pals a while back and almost choked in the casinos. It was honestly hard to have fun with your eyes burning, your nose running, and your lungs screaming for oxygen. You request a no-smoking room and still come home smelling like an ashtray.

I think that the "no smoking" thing has worked out well here. Public places are providing areas for customers to smoke outside and it has contributed to a healthier environment overall. I've had family members and friends who smoke, and they've adjusted their habits to the change. The big talk was banning smoking on public beaches, but that was a bit hard to pass at the state level.

I think that if the whole thing is implemented in stages, people will have time to adapt.

Just my two cents worth...

Ric
01-26-2007, 04:32 PM
as a nurse, would you agree that there an an inordinate amount of smokers in your profession? It seems that way (unscientifically, of course) to me from an outsider's perspective


Okay...

As a nurse, you don't need to know what my opinion is! I will tell you, however, that I have cared for children with lung cancer (no...they were not smokers...)...and it's UGLY.

That said, I live in sunny California where the state has banned smoking in all enclosed public places, and what a difference it has made. I went to Vegas with some pals a while back and almost choked in the casinos. It was honestly hard to have fun with your eyes burning, your nose running, and your lungs screaming for oxygen. You request a no-smoking room and still come home smelling like an ashtray.

I think that the "no smoking" thing has worked out well here. Public places are providing areas for customers to smoke outside and it has contributed to a healthier environment overall. I've had family members and friends who smoke, and they've adjusted their habits to the change. The big talk was banning smoking on public beaches, but that was a bit hard to pass at the state level.

I think that if the whole thing is implemented in stages, people will have time to adapt.

Just my two cents worth...

Rapunzl
01-26-2007, 04:43 PM
Yes, Ric,

I will say that there are many nurses (and doctors) who smoke, despite the overwhelming evidence on the long-term effects. I am not saying that it's wrong, because I've had friends who have smoked and tried to quit and can't. I do understand the addiction.

But I can say that it's nice to take my kids out to a restaurant and not have to worry about them breathing second-hand smoke.

P-hat_in_Cincy
01-26-2007, 04:54 PM
Smoke Free Ohio just went into effect here. On the ballet was a "Smoke Free Ohio" that banned it in public establishments as well as a "Smoke Less Ohio" that modified the state constitution, but still allowed allowances of smoking. Smoke Free won out.

As a non-smoker, I'm loving it. No allergy flare-ups in the 'non-smoking' section anymore. Visiting places (with the entire family) that were normally smokey environments, etc...

I have witnessed the initial down-turn in business, but as the weeks go by they are getting back up to full speed.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2007, 04:56 PM
But I can say that it's nice to take my kids out to a restaurant and not have to worry about them breathing second-hand smoke.
I would first like to welcome you to the board..Some call it TeamTalk..And I've recently heard it refered to as the "ThinkTank"...:D

I find it almost offensive when I have my kid(s) with me and they ask "smoking or not"...It's not funny to me(inside) but I say, non please (my kid) hasn't taken up the habit yet, and I don't want it to become habit forming.....

M-Funf
01-26-2007, 05:19 PM
I have never smoked, but I don't get the whole smoking ban bandwagon thing...I'm sure it will get to the point where you can't smoke anywhere, not even in your own home. Like I said, I don't smoke, but what somebody does in their own home is their own damn business. :mad:

Ric
01-26-2007, 05:21 PM
I would first like to welcome you to the board..Some call it TeamTalk..And I've recently heard it refered to as the "ThinkTank"...:D

I find it almost offensive when I have my kid(s) with me and they ask "smoking or not"...It's not funny to me(inside) but I say, non please (my kid) hasn't taken up the habit yet, and I don't want it to become habit forming..... that goes along with the point I made about our recent hostess... I see that the Lights are on, but nobody's home!

flyingskibiker
01-26-2007, 05:27 PM
being from cali.... it was weird for me when i first started traveling again to have someone ask me, "smoking or non-smoking?" i hadn't even thought of it until then. last weekend at the ski resort, someone was smoking about 100 yards from me. i couldn't take it... strange. it kind of sucks to be in "nature" and have to smell/breath someone else's...anything! IMHO

shepherd
01-26-2007, 05:37 PM
give me a freakin' break... In that case, I want my state to pass a law prohibiting farting in public elevators, on commercial airlines, and in the checkout lanes in supermarkets. That stuff bothers me as much as cigarette smoke. Hey and lets throw in strong body odor and perfume/cologne while we're at it. :rolleyes:

Oh, and all cars should be required to shut their engines off when not moving forward (e.g., while sitting at lights) because I think the exhaust will give me cancer when I'm stuck behind them!

jrcarte78
01-26-2007, 05:38 PM
Absolutely, but we allow (and sometimes need) someone to help us make decisions regarding other issues. For example, there is correlation between death and driving drunk, driving 120MPH in a 35, running stop signs, skiing while on crack, etc. Therefore, these are not legal. Where do we draw the line on what is legislated?

I'm from Arkansas, this question is way too deep for me :D

But, if smoking were illegal then I, obviously, would be all for a ban. But, until it is....

Let the business owner decide. If he/she notices that they've had a decline in business b/c they still allow people to smoke, they will no longer allow smoking in their establishment.

I just don't think it should be something that is governed in places of business.

J.R.

M-Funf
01-26-2007, 05:40 PM
Oh, and all cars should be required to shut their engines off when not moving forward (e.g., while sitting at lights) because I think the exhaust will give me cancer when I'm stuck behind them! Actually, I think this may be law in some European countries :o

Ric
01-26-2007, 05:41 PM
Heyyyyy Shep, Let's Ban Cell Phone Use While We're At It!

Rapunzl
01-26-2007, 06:07 PM
give me a freakin' break... In that case, I want my state to pass a law prohibiting farting in public elevators, on commercial airlines, and in the checkout lanes in supermarkets. That stuff bothers me as much as cigarette smoke. Hey and lets throw in strong body odor and perfume/cologne while we're at it. :rolleyes:

Oh, and all cars should be required to shut their engines off when not moving forward (e.g., while sitting at lights) because I think the exhaust will give me cancer when I'm stuck behind them!

Yup. That would be my mom. In the frozen food section. She's famous in these parts (or is that farts???) for it...! Yeah...that cold air just helps it linger just a bit longer......:eek3:

Don't get me started on BO.

By the way...thanks for the welcome, guys!

shepherd
01-26-2007, 06:25 PM
Heyyyyy Shep, Let's Ban Cell Phone Use While We're At It!

Hey now... that's just un-American ;)

And a belated welcome Rap! I thought that, being a medical professional, you'd have a higher tolerance for the disgusting bodily function stuff! :D (j/k)

Man, I feel happy hour approaching... Time to move on to the Friday Drink thread...

Ric
01-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Yup. That would be my mom. In the frozen food section. She's famous in these parts (or is that farts???) for it...! Yeah...that cold air just helps it linger just a bit longer......:eek3:

Don't get me started on BO.

By the way...thanks for the welcome, guys! . .

TMCNo1
01-26-2007, 09:15 PM
Yup. That would be my mom. In the frozen food section. She's famous in these parts (or is that farts???) for it...! Yeah...that cold air just helps it linger just a bit longer..........


Welcome and easy on the older folks! For some it's not just a thing that happens, it's a profession!

Bongo
01-26-2007, 09:45 PM
Gotta say that I liked the California rules, even though not in favor of laws for this type of stuff.

We'd forgotten how bad you felt after a night on the town in a smoke filled room until we moved to Tennessee...where there is a State Law that cities and counties cannot pass ordinances banning smoking. Smoke'em if you got'em.

I don't understand why more establishments don't go smokeless and advertise the heck out of it in order to draw non-smokers away from smokey establishments. Let the free markets work. Or maybe they do, and us non-smokers aren't worth the risk.

Bongo

Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2007, 10:28 PM
Heyyyyy Shep, Let's Ban Cell Phone Use While We're At It!
Can't use 'em while we drive around here....So now we get those stupis things that people stick in their ears so they can't hear the traffic. I can't figure out if people pay more attention or less with these contraptions attached to their heads...
Jus' sayin'......

JKTX21
01-26-2007, 10:40 PM
Eh, I smoke... sometimes a lot, sometimes not... I don't really care. I've never thought "Oh sweet, smoke free bar" or "No screw that, I won't go there" because I can't smoke.

But I do have an opinion... if they ban smoking in outdoor places, etc... they need to get control of women (and some men) with their fragrances (good or not). That really irritates me. And don't get me started on people with the cell phones in public places.

TX.X-30 fan
01-27-2007, 01:30 AM
It often surprises me how easily people are wiling to give up there rights to satisfy some personal goals. I think we as a group of recreational boaters would be surprised at the number of people that would like to put an end to what we consider entertainment. Do you not think that some kayakers, hikers , swimmers, home owners, bird watchers ect... would like to see motor boats off public waterways. All you have to do is look at the restrictions that have, and are being placed upon PWC'S, who do you think is on the radar next. I don't like to smell Marlboro's while I'm' eating either (so I eat elsewhere). People do many stupid things to their bodies, but in my humble opinion we still have the right in this country to make our own decisions.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-28-2007, 02:19 AM
Say for example, If someone chose to inhale asbestos after a meal, and the best way was to dispurse it evenly throughout the establishment, I should not object?

For crying out loud, are they not only trying to kill themselves, but they are doing it to everyone around them....

TX.X-30 fan
01-28-2007, 04:17 AM
From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Karl Marx :(

Ric
01-28-2007, 11:18 AM
Say for example, If someone chose to inhale asbestos after a meal, and the best way was to dispurse it evenly throughout the establishment, I should not object?

For crying out loud, are they not only trying to kill themselves, but they are doing it to everyone around them.... bad example.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-28-2007, 11:50 AM
bad example.
8p ..............8p ...............8p

Ric
01-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Can't use 'em while we drive around here....So now we get those stupis things that people stick in their ears so they can't hear the traffic. I can't figure out if people pay more attention or less with these contraptions attached to their heads...
Jus' sayin'...... cannot remember my phone ever becoming a distraction to my driving yet I've seen many on the freeways who don't handle the driving responsibility while phoning...


Text messaging on the other hand, may be the next big danger on the roads:eek: I admit, I cannot do it but I bet there are many who try!

kpgotgame
01-28-2007, 12:56 PM
In Ontario,Canada we went non-smoking in public places over a year ago. I work as a manager at a border city Casino - I am literally looking accross the water at Michigan as I work. I can tell you from a business perspective - it hurts. The patrons that we have retained love the atmosphere without the smoke however business is down more than 15% as a result and we have not recovered that play in more than a year. It is also great for the employees as they do not have to deal with the second hand smoke. However it can be very difficult to manage - for example - we have an outdoor smoking patio however I can not have an employee clean the area when in use as I would be exposing them to harmful second hand smoke. It really hit us financially as there are 3 major Casino's in Detroit that offer a smoking environment, if your competition must follow the same rules I would expect your business to return as consumers would not have an option.

Ric
01-28-2007, 01:06 PM
In Ontario,Canada we went non-smoking in public places over a year ago. I work as a manager at a border city Casino - I am literally looking accross the water at Michigan as I work. I can tell you from a business perspective - it hurts. The patrons that we have retained love the atmosphere without the smoke however business is down more than 15% as a result and we have not recovered that play in more than a year. It is also great for the employees as they do not have to deal with the second hand smoke. However it can be very difficult to manage - for example - we have an outdoor smoking patio however I can not have an employee clean the area when in use as I would be exposing them to harmful second hand smoke. It really hit us financially as there are 3 major Casino's in Detroit that offer a smoking environment, if your competition must follow the same rules I would expect your business to return as consumers would not have an option.

Threadjack number nine
I think that last statement can apply to US manufacturing as well... If all the cheapo manufacturing countries were adhering to all our business stifling regulations or non-government forces which drive up costs, we'd have the utopian "level playing field"

Leroy
01-28-2007, 01:44 PM
There are all kinds of government controls over the years on substances and actions:
Seat belts and general driving regulations
Removing lead from gas
Limiting emissions from factories
No asbestos
Eliminating mercury from manufacturing
Eliminating cynade from general use.

Prohibition is the only one of significance I know to be repealed.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-28-2007, 10:12 PM
cannot remember my phone ever becoming a distraction to my driving yet I've seen many on the freeways who don't handle the driving responsibility while phoning...


Text messaging on the other hand, may be the next big danger on the roads:eek: I admit, I cannot do it but I bet there are many who try!
I have fallen victim to the bluetooth vehicle...So I get this Vanna White turning letters type of "ding-dong" sound when I get a call and this woman's electronic voice interupts my MOD or Shinedown jam to tell me so. I still can not say if that distracts me more, or the phone itself ringing and trying to answer while trying to maintain a steady 65mph. Eitherway, I'd much rather not talk on a cell phone while driving and I have been doing so for about 15 years, however I'd prefer it to be my option, and not a law:o ...

OTOH- watching others try to do this, scares the he!! out of me...

Workin' 4 Toys
01-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Threadjack number nine
I think that last statement can apply to US manufacturing as well... If all the cheapo manufacturing countries were adhering to all our business stifling regulations or non-government forces which drive up costs, we'd have the utopian "level playing field"

:worthy:.............. :worthy:............... :worthy:

Hoosier Bob
01-28-2007, 10:15 PM
As long as Refer is still legal I don't care what they do!;)

Workin' 4 Toys
01-28-2007, 10:41 PM
As long as Refer is still legal I don't care what they do!;)
They must still be using lead in the fuel over there....:rolleyes:

Workin' 4 Toys
05-02-2007, 02:29 PM
Hmmmmm.....Looks like we may be in for a statewide smoking ban January 1, 2008.:confused: And it sounds like it's going to be up to the governor...

nuckinfutz
05-02-2007, 03:21 PM
I am ashamed to say.. I am a smoker. If there is one thing I ever regret is falling into that catagory. My take on a smoking ban in public facilities... Good on em! I dont like going to a public area and have to smell smoke while Im eating, or subject a friend who does not smoke to an enviroment that has been known to kill, maim, or even diplease someone. Reading through some of these posts does raise some great issues at hand such as "do we need the government to tell us what we can and cannot do". Tough desision, but as long as we do stay pro-active in our governments ideas, we can limit the amount of fingers they put in. Should we fight the fact thast they stuck there hands in our rights or prohibited others rights to long lives and prosperity? I would be outraged if someone told me I could not do something that did not proove to reflect harm on anyone else, however this case is somewhat diffrent. I will gladly surrender my right to punish myself in public so that I do not take the chance and punish someone else. I will kindly go outside, in the parking lot, away from others to subject myself to a crude habbit I have formed.

I may be one of the weird smokers in the crowd. I hide my smoke when I see kids, or teens, or someone who could be influenced. I didnt start smoking when I was young because I needed to, I started because I could. Smoking in the 80's was still un-accepted then, but socially accepted with more people than today. As a smoker I will be the first to say, Smoking should not be socially acceptable.

My .02

TX.X-30 fan
05-02-2007, 04:29 PM
Ban food or at least fast food places, buffets, and all restaurants that exceed the FDA'S diet recommendations. As a healthy person I am saddled with outrageous health insurance so people with no willpower can stuff their faces all day long with big mac's. :rant: As far as smoking goes, give me a table full of dudes smoking giant churchill's than next to the 400LB pig on his forth plate of chicken wings. ;)




Comparing the 1987 National Medical Expenditure Survey and the 2002 Medical Expenditure Panel Survey, annual spending on obesity-related illness increased from $3.6 billion to $36.5 billion.

This number required 11.6% of all private healthcare spending, compared to only two percent in 1987, driving up insurance premiums all over the country, according to the article published in Health Affairs.

Lead author of the study, Emory University's Kenneth Thorpe, says that obesity should be given the same level of concern from the public as smoking has gotten.

"We need to have the same type of societal attention on this issue that we gave to smoking 20 years ago," Thorpe said.

Thorpe attributes the increase in spending to two factors: the increase in diseases related to obesity, such as adult on-set diabetes (type 2), high blood pressure, upper gastrointestinal disorders, high blood sugar, high cholesterol; and the rising cost of per-patient care.

Looking only at privately insured adults aged 18-64, the survey scanned spending on the top 20 health conditions.

"We found overwhelmingly that the rise in private insurance spending was traced to the fact that we were treating more and more people with a variety of chronic health conditions," Thorpe said.

The bulk of spending seemed to rest the obese. In 2001, the privately insured overweight cost insurance companies an additional $1,244 per person than those of healthier weights. In 1987, the gap was only $272.

Doubling the 1987 number, 15.5% of obese adults (30 or more pounds overweight) were treated for six or more medical conditions. Twenty-five percent of the extremely obese (80 pounds or more overweight) were being treated for six or more medical conditions.

Type 2 diabetes showed the most dramatic increase. Treatment of adult-onset diabetes increased by 64% between 1987 and 2001.

Almost a third of Americans are obese and Thorpe says more needs to be done to curb a growing epidemic in health-related matters, nipping them in the bud instead of only addressing the cost issues.

"Most of what is going on now to try to control health care spending is missing the target," Thorpe says. "Companies are tweaking co-pays and talking about health care savings accounts when really they need to redirect their focus to reduce the prevalence of obesity among children and workers."

Jason L. Miller is a staff writer for WebProNews covering technology and business.

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uawaterskier
05-02-2007, 04:32 PM
my home town did a thing where restraunts either have to be all non smoking or all smoking. And the restraunts that were smoking you cant get into if you are under 19. How dumb is that?

milkmania
05-02-2007, 04:36 PM
I am ashamed to say.. I am a smoker. If there is one thing I ever regret is falling into that catagory. My take on a smoking ban in public facilities... Good on em! I dont like going to a public area and have to smell smoke while Im eating, or subject a friend who does not smoke to an enviroment that has been known to kill, maim, or even diplease someone. Reading through some of these posts does raise some great issues at hand such as "do we need the government to tell us what we can and cannot do". Tough desision, but as long as we do stay pro-active in our governments ideas, we can limit the amount of fingers they put in. Should we fight the fact thast they stuck there hands in our rights or prohibited others rights to long lives and prosperity? I would be outraged if someone told me I could not do something that did not proove to reflect harm on anyone else, however this case is somewhat diffrent. I will gladly surrender my right to punish myself in public so that I do not take the chance and punish someone else. I will kindly go outside, in the parking lot, away from others to subject myself to a crude habbit I have formed.

I may be one of the weird smokers in the crowd. I hide my smoke when I see kids, or teens, or someone who could be influenced. I didnt start smoking when I was young because I needed to, I started because I could. Smoking in the 80's was still un-accepted then, but socially accepted with more people than today. As a smoker I will be the first to say, Smoking should not be socially acceptable.

My .02


I skimmed over that (ran out of time)

but, I concur!

I've not smoked indoors since 1987!!!!
don't smoke in my trucks!!!!

it's all about common courtesy!
why would I want my family to smell like my cigarette smoke??

nuckinfutz
05-02-2007, 05:16 PM
Ban food or at least fast food places, buffets, and all restaurants that exceed the FDA'S diet recommendations. As a healthy person I am saddled with outrageous health insurance so people with no willpower can stuff their faces all day long with big mac's. :rant: As far as smoking goes, give me a table full of dudes smoking giant churchill's than next to the 400LB pig on his forth plate of chicken wings. ;)

:


good point.. Dont think we need to Ban them though. If Im sitting at a table next to yours eating a cheese burger getting fat, will it pose a threat to you and yours? Perhaps it will lower the standards of socially acceptable, but as a imediate threat to your health... Probably not.

Workin' 4 Toys
05-02-2007, 05:23 PM
my home town did a thing where restraunts either have to be all non smoking or all smoking. And the restraunts that were smoking you cant get into if you are under 19. How dumb is that?
Did I read this correctly? They won't let anyone under 19 into a place that allows smoking?

TX.X-30 fan
05-02-2007, 06:43 PM
Personally I try not to associate with groups like these, PETA, Planned Parenthood, global warming nuts(Al Gore), Sierra Club, and any other radical group. There is one thing all these groups have in common, they align with the anti-smoking crowd. :confused:


I have smoked but I never inhaled. :D


__________________________________________________ _________


March 14, 2005


Up In Secondhand Smoke: What Does Science Tell Us?


By Michael D. Shaw

[Introduction by Michael J. McCurdy, founder/publisher of HealthNewsDigest.com]

Few health issues are as controversial, emotional, and as subject to political correctness as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) or passive smoking. So this week I invited Michael D. Shaw, an environmental scientist, to comment on the latest news released on Wednesday the 9th from the California Air Research Board, that second-hand smoke causes breast cancer in 20 - 90% of women and children. The American Cancer Society said that the study is "controversial."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a scientist who regularly writes about indoor air quality, I must approach this topic with an appropriate degree of objectivity: I do not have a vested interest in the politics of this matter, but I do have a responsibility - both as a biochemist and member of the scientific community - to dispel some commonly held myths about secondhand smoke and the risk of cancer.

Unfortunately, the entire subject of secondhand smoke resides in an area of discourse heavily laced with activists, who, passionate about their mission of improving public health, far too readily exaggerate the dangers. Moreover, the whole notion of ETS being listed as an indoor air pollutant started in the mid-1980's, as hapless tenants in overpriced windowless high-rise office buildings sought creative means of breaking their leases. No doubt, workers could be irritated by ETS, but then, they could also be irritated by perfume. Indeed, excessive perfume is considered an indoor air pollutant in some quarters, along with cooking odors.

As to the matter of someone being "allergic" to ETS, based on the traditional definition of an allergen being an agent that promotes an immunological response, ETS fails that test, and so far, at least, can only be classified as an irritant. Properly, people are "sensitive" to ETS. But, playing on the well known dangers of smoking, the doom-profiteers have worked many people into a frenzy, by conflating the bad habit of smoking with the much different matter of breathing in secondhand smoke.

Science, at its best, should never have an agenda, and should aid the quest for truth. In the days before big media and big research grants, bizarre claims could be subjected to the harsh light of objective science. Nowadays, though, it is sometimes the alleged "science" that promotes the bizarre claims.
Back in the 1960's, many health agencies proffered a set of two graphs. One tracked the increase in cigarette smoking from 1900-1930, and the other tracked the increased incidence in lung cancer from 1930-1960. That the two graphs could virtually be superimposed was as ringing an indictment of smoking as any gory autopsy picture of a smoker's cancer-ravaged lungs. Contrast this with the paradoxical claim by the Centers for Disease Control a few years ago that passive smoking could explain an increase in asthma over the last decade, even though as asthma was increasing, the number of smokers was decreasing.

So, how dangerous IS secondhand smoke? The most reliable data would indicate that it is nowhere near as serious a threat as elements of the media (and their supporters within academia) would have us believe. In fact, ETS is, at its most extreme, far less dangerous than numerous other indoor air pollutants such as carbon monoxide, toxic mold, and radon.
The biggest study on this topic, covering 39 years, and involving 118,094 adults, with particular focus on 35,561 who never smoked, and had a spouse in the study with known smoking habits, came to this conclusion:

"The results do not support a causal relation between environmental tobacco smoke and tobacco related mortality, although they do not rule out a small effect. The association between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed."

Not surprisingly, considering the non-PC findings, the May, 2003 article detailing the study generated a good deal of hate e-mail on the journal's website.

Several other studies support these results, including one from the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, published back in 1975, when smoking was rampant in bars and other public places. The paper concluded that the concentration of ETS contaminants in these smoky confines was equal to the effects of smoking 0.004 cigarettes per hour. In other words, you would have to hang out for 250 hours to match the effects of smoking one cigarette.


But this issue is controversial, right? Just a few days ago, the trend-setting California Air Resources Board announced results of their draft report, "Proposed Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant." The report concludes that women exposed to secondhand tobacco smoke have a 90 percent higher risk of breast cancer. The document also pegs the annual death toll of secondhand smoke at 73,400.

It should be noted that the World Health Organization and other groups that examined the same evidence found no link to breast cancer. Furthermore, the Air Resources Board gives more weight to animal studies, but much epidemiology of suspected human carcinogens indicates that animal data overstates the actual risk.

My gut tells me that the Air Resources Board is wrong, but we'll see how this all plays out.

ProTour X9
05-02-2007, 06:43 PM
Businesses might save money by prohibiting smoking so they don't have to paint the white ceilings so often.:rolleyes:

ProTour X9
05-02-2007, 06:45 PM
.....I am literally looking across the water at Michigan as I work......

Can you see me?:D ;)

Workin' 4 Toys
05-02-2007, 07:27 PM
In fact, ETS is, at its most extreme, far less dangerous than numerous other indoor air pollutants such as carbon monoxide, toxic mold, and radon.
I went through all that and picked this out....Is this infamous ETS = East TX skier? :rolleyes: 8p

SkiDog
05-02-2007, 07:35 PM
I went through all that and picked this out....Is this infamous ETS = East TX skier? :rolleyes: 8p

I, for one, wished that cig's cost $15.00 a pack! I watched BOTH of my parents die from these damn things, and both of em wanted a cigarette up until their last breath! It's a horrible thing to watch!

TX.X-30 fan
05-02-2007, 07:36 PM
I went through all that and picked this out....Is this infamous ETS = East TX skier? :rolleyes: 8p



YES YES East tx skier is on the toxic superfund clean-up list. 8p

Workin' 4 Toys
05-02-2007, 07:40 PM
For some reason those deadly indoor pollutants still don't reek as bad as cig. smoke.

lakesnake
05-03-2007, 02:26 AM
I, for one, wished that cig's cost $15.00 a pack! I watched BOTH of my parents die from these damn things, and both of em wanted a cigarette up until their last breath! It's a horrible thing to watch!


Bad thing is though, most people would do without food or clothing or something for their kids to pay the $15.00 a pack. I encountered the following complaint while working at a convenience store. It absolutely kills me to witness a man or woman with several kids come in to buy beer and cigarettes. Then when a kid (who looks malnourished in the first place) asks for a piece of gum they get a buttchewin and told they don't need that or they didn't have enough money. I actually called into the DHS a couple times. I hate to do so, but it saddens and angers me when the only nutrition a kid gets is at school, while the parents are sucking down beers, sucking on cigarettes and crank (bought with a welfare check or borrowed cash), and so on. :mad:

Now I have no problem with enjoying a fine beer in a responsible manner, if your budget allows. And as far as cigarettes go, do away with them. If a President or Congressman would grow some apples and shut down or at least maim the cigarette companies, we'd be much better off. But it all leads back to MONEY! Nobody wants to provide anyone else a lethal product, unless they're getting paid enough to milk their conscience.

Myself, I go bar-hoppin and clubbin from time to time and reek like an ashtray when i get home. You never realize how many attractive men and women smoke until you go to these places. And to be honest I enjoyed a cigar the last time i was at the dance club. But I didn't light one up every 2 minutes like some of the people there do the cigarettes. You really don't see a cigar addiction like you do cigarettes or smokeless.

I've had many relatives die or are dying from smoking. I watched my grandfather light and hold a cig up to my grandmother's lips on her deathbed so she could take a drag or two because she couldn't move. Absolutely pathetic.

I think smoking should be banned from restaurants. I love the old tricks establishments used to pull to "separate" smoking and non-smoking areas,like putting up a dividing wall with openings on both sides. Like vacuum has no effect when doors are opened and shut... I mean really, why should you be able to smoke around me while i'm trying to savor the flavor of a juicy steak I'm paying good money for? I don't walk up to you and your lobster and rip a big stanky fart!
I could go on forever about this one, so I'll stop there. Just my $.02 plus interest...

trunderw
05-03-2007, 08:43 AM
At my high school it was against the code of conduct to stink...and it explicitly mentioned you can't eat ramps at school. However, for the 18+ y/o students who still hadn't graduated who still smoked, there was a place for them to smoke...

Maristar210
05-03-2007, 09:09 AM
Bad thing is though, most people would do without food or clothing or something for their kids to pay the $15.00 a pack. I encountered the following complaint while working at a convenience store. It absolutely kills me to witness a man or woman with several kids come in to buy beer and cigarettes. Then when a kid (who looks malnourished in the first place) asks for a piece of gum they get a buttchewin and told they don't need that or they didn't have enough money. I actually called into the DHS a couple times. I hate to do so, but it saddens and angers me when the only nutrition a kid gets is at school, while the parents are sucking down beers, sucking on cigarettes and crank (bought with a welfare check or borrowed cash), and so on. :mad:

Now I have no problem with enjoying a fine beer in a responsible manner, if your budget allows. And as far as cigarettes go, do away with them. If a President or Congressman would grow some apples and shut down or at least maim the cigarette companies, we'd be much better off. But it all leads back to MONEY! Nobody wants to provide anyone else a lethal product, unless they're getting paid enough to milk their conscience.

Myself, I go bar-hoppin and clubbin from time to time and reek like an ashtray when i get home. You never realize how many attractive men and women smoke until you go to these places. And to be honest I enjoyed a cigar the last time i was at the dance club. But I didn't light one up every 2 minutes like some of the people there do the cigarettes. You really don't see a cigar addiction like you do cigarettes or smokeless.

I've had many relatives die or are dying from smoking. I watched my grandfather light and hold a cig up to my grandmother's lips on her deathbed so she could take a drag or two because she couldn't move. Absolutely pathetic.

I think smoking should be banned from restaurants. I love the old tricks establishments used to pull to "separate" smoking and non-smoking areas,like putting up a dividing wall with openings on both sides. Like vacuum has no effect when doors are opened and shut... I mean really, why should you be able to smoke around me while i'm trying to savor the flavor of a juicy steak I'm paying good money for? I don't walk up to you and your lobster and rip a big stanky fart!
I could go on forever about this one, so I'll stop there. Just my $.02 plus interest...


Well said Lakesnake. Very well said.

Workin' 4 Toys
05-03-2007, 05:04 PM
Have I mentioned I don't like smoke, I don't like cigarettes.
I don't smoke.
I don't like someone (government) telling me what I can and can't do.

What's next, will they tell me I can't have a fireplace in my house that burns wood?:confused:

kycat2007
05-03-2007, 05:09 PM
What is up with the smokers throwing out the buds onto the roads etc. Is that littering or what. or how about at the lake, I hate swimming and have a butt in my face. Man that stinks.

Workin' 4 Toys
05-03-2007, 05:17 PM
Great point. I have asked some smokers over the years about that. And the response tends to be "It's just cotton, it'll go away". And I have to ask, "would you be ok with my disposing of our used toilet paper on your lawn, it would go away too...." Has about the same odor....:rolleyes: