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jjsosnowski
12-18-2006, 08:45 PM
rumor through the grape vine at my local dealer is that cat diesel engines are comming for 08. anyone else heard anything. Any thought good/bad???????

Sodar
12-18-2006, 08:53 PM
If this is true, it would be incedible!!! Cat started out early with problems of making a lightweight diesel, especially in marine applications, which is why Yanmar and Volvo were able to take over the small diesel market, but Cat has made leaps and bounds and has been able to catch up in recent years.

vogelm1
12-18-2006, 08:56 PM
A real good friend of mine is an engineer at Cat...I'll email him tomorrow and see what I can find out. Stay tuned....

H20skeefreek
12-18-2006, 09:09 PM
Not Cat https://www.waterskis.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=83 but Audi looks like European boats only.

Slinkyredfoot
12-18-2006, 09:19 PM
I kinda heard the same thing. Buddy of mine who works for a big iron Cat dealer eluded to the same thing. I can't imagine a diesel in a MC fresh water boat

trickskier
12-18-2006, 09:31 PM
Being in the trucking industry for more than 35 years, I know CAT engines pretty well. At the present time the smallest marine engine they produce is a 3126. It's an in-line 6 cylinder and weighs nearly 1,600 lbs. I don't see this in an MC any time soon.

milkmania
12-18-2006, 09:55 PM
Being in the trucking industry for more than 35 years, I know CAT engines pretty well. At the present time the smallest marine engine they produce is a 3126. It's an in-line 6 cylinder and weighs nearly 1,600 lbs. I don't see this in an MC any time soon.


wakeboard boat!!!!!:headbang:

Danimal
12-19-2006, 07:43 AM
Are we absolutely sure that the dealer didn't mean the ETX/CAT?

chudson
12-19-2006, 08:11 AM
There was a Thread started this past year that had a picture of a MasterCraft with a diesel in it, I'll see if I can find it!!!

Found it, it was in a Thread started by "east tx skier". It's not a Cat engine though!!!

http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=11153&highlight=Diesel+engine

http://www.planetwaterski.com/report/dmc.htm

sizzler
12-19-2006, 08:16 AM
i saw a 190 with the diesel engine in it at the jan boat show in london......the option was 10,000 extra........:eek:

Workin' 4 Toys
12-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Being in the trucking industry for more than 35 years, I know CAT engines pretty well. At the present time the smallest marine engine they produce is a 3126. It's an in-line 6 cylinder and weighs nearly 1,600 lbs. I don't see this in an MC any time soon.
And at only 355mhp for that 1600lbs, I'd rather the MCX.....;) However, for the 1600# I'd like the assurance I could leave it running FOREVER....:cool:

Sodar
12-19-2006, 08:55 AM
The ONLY boat I see a Cat going into is the 280/X80. The smallest boat I have ever seen a Cat in is a 28' sportfisher and those were the 3126's. I have not seen a 280/X80 in person, to guage whether this motor would even fit in the current motor hatch.

MYMC
12-19-2006, 10:59 AM
Nothing better than the rumor mill, except maybe a pepper mill.

VW is doing the diesel that has been tested in MC boats Cat has assited with tech support (I have heard) as the do many companies because of depth of their tech department.

MYMC
12-19-2006, 11:02 AM
The ONLY boat I see a Cat going into is the 280/X80. The smallest boat I have ever seen a Cat in is a 28' sportfisher and those were the 3126's. I have not seen a 280/X80 in person, to guage whether this motor would even fit in the current motor hatch.
We dont build any boat that will support the wieght or size let alone the air volume required of CAT engines...even the 3126 (single let alone dual applications).

Sodar
12-19-2006, 11:06 AM
We dont build any boat that will support the wieght or size let alone the air volume required of CAT engines...even the 3126 (single let alone dual applications).

That is what I figured! I do see a Yanmar or Volvo as being an option though. I have seen Yanmar's in Cigarrette's before...

thijs
12-19-2006, 11:22 AM
I have always thought that Cat should develop a truck engine to be fit into the Ford Superduty. Dodge does very well marketing Cummins in their trucks and Cat has even managed to get into the work wear industry over the hype over their engines.

That would be a supercool-superduty.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-19-2006, 12:17 PM
I have always thought that Cat should develop a truck engine to be fit into the Ford Superduty.
Funny thing, I believe the Navistar plant is powered by Cats.......(At least a portion anyway) And the Cat service techs drive Fords....hmmmmmmm.....:rolleyes:

rcnjson
12-19-2006, 12:25 PM
I have always thought that Cat should develop a truck engine to be fit into the Ford Superduty. Dodge does very well marketing Cummins in their trucks and Cat has even managed to get into the work wear industry over the hype over their engines.

That would be a supercool-superduty.

I think there is an F650 or something like that available with a Cat C7 and an Allison tranny... best of both worlds. They probably cost $100K but it ain't cheap to look that cool.

I have seen a Cat diesel in an old F350. It was before they changed the body style so a 96 or 97. It was at one of the local diesel shops. I think they wanted a lot for that one too. There are also guys that do the Cummins transplants. I've seen those in everything from Ford trucks to Chevy suburbans.

k

Rallyspitman
12-19-2006, 01:11 PM
I'm an Engineer at CAT in the UK. I've not heard anything but that means nothing, as it would likely be kept very confidential. CAT also owns Sabre Marine in the UK who do a range of smaller engines than the 3126, but they're obviously much lower power. They are also HEAVY!!! That said, we do get involved in 'special' projects, and converting others engines with electronics and such like, for example the CAT V10TDI sportscar engine that I developed for Le-mans in 2004 - that was based on a stock VW V10 5.0 touareg engine, with a lot of modification to hike output (obviously!)

MC have done a VW diesel demonstrator in the UK - not heard of it for a while.
The link is:-
http://www.theskiboatzone.co.uk/Public/News.asp?Id=%7BEA7BBB40-DDCE-4D11-8C81-588EAAA42917%7D

I'll ask at this years boatshow (Jan 7th-14th)

MYMC
12-19-2006, 02:50 PM
Funny thing, I believe the Navistar plant is powered by Cats.......(At least a portion anyway) And the Cat service techs drive Fords....hmmmmmmm.....:rolleyes:
Don't believe this is correct since CAT sued Navistar over the FI system used on the Ford diesels.

jjsosnowski
12-20-2006, 06:35 AM
just got first look pics from secret source on diesel in mc 190. its actually a vw /audi 3.0L. Im told going to be pricey. having trouble sizing pics. I will bring laptop on plane,heading to fl. for holidays. try to get pics out.

jjsosnowski
12-20-2006, 06:55 AM
check it out!!!!

MYMC
12-20-2006, 07:03 AM
Nothing secret about it...the boat pulled the event in the UK in 2006. It is expensive.

Rallyspitman
12-20-2006, 07:10 AM
Don't believe this is correct since CAT sued Navistar over the FI system used on the Ford diesels.

CAT and Navistar were in litigation from 2002 until August this year, when they settled and agreed to continue their business relationship for engines, remanufacturing and fuel systems supply.

H20skeefreek
12-20-2006, 07:22 AM
check it out!!!!
These are the same pics (only much smaller) as I posted above. No secret. .

Workin' 4 Toys
12-20-2006, 08:57 AM
Don't believe this is correct since CAT sued Navistar over the FI system used on the Ford diesels.
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying...
click here for "Powered BY" (http://www.cogeneration.org/profiles/prof-1a.html);)

MYMC
12-20-2006, 01:36 PM
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying...
click here for "Powered BY" (http://www.cogeneration.org/profiles/prof-1a.html);)
Gotcha...now I get it...duh.

Blair
12-20-2006, 11:16 PM
And at only 355mhp for that 1600lbs, I'd rather the MCX.....;) However, for the 1600# I'd like the assurance I could leave it running FOREVER....:cool:



yeah but think of the torqure that you would have to get out of the hole with that 355 HP

Monte
12-21-2006, 12:00 AM
wakeboard boat!!!!!:headbang:

I like You're thinkin!

MYMC
12-21-2006, 08:40 AM
Trust me when you see the cost you won't.

Monte
12-21-2006, 08:45 AM
Trust me when you see the cost you won't.

Surely it will come down eventually??? Kinda like plasma TV's??

Workin' 4 Toys
12-21-2006, 09:13 AM
yeah but think of the torqure that you would have to get out of the hole with that 355 HP
All right, you are on to something, twin screw...Or split drives....;) It would still need to be in an X80 or..... the CSX:cool:

vogelm1
12-21-2006, 11:19 AM
Here is what my good friend (engineer with Cat) had to say about Cat diesels in MasterCrafts, FWIW...


"I don't believe Cat is working on anything for ski boat engines. We do make a lot of marine engines for larger vessels. However a diesel could make sense for wakebaord boats because of the added weight. I'm not sure the market would accept the very slight (under 1/4 second) turbo lag on typical diesel engines and if it was a naturally aspirated diesel, the engine would be even heavier to produce the same power. If they used a supercharger rather than a turbo charger, it eliminates any turbo lag. At lower rpm ranges, diesels have much better torque curves (torque is what matters, not horsepower) and are much more efficient.

Comparing the L18 with the Cat C-7: Basically the same HP for the Cat but double the torque. With the right v-drive gear ratio and prop combination, the Cat C-7 should significantly outperform the L18 even considering the added weight (considered a bonus for wakeboarders).

L18 (8.1L)
Weight: 800 - 900 lbs
HP: 450 hp
Torque: 505 ft-lbs

Cat C-7 (7.2L)
Weight: 1760 lbs
HP: 460 hp
Torque: 1050 ft-lbs"

MYMC
12-21-2006, 11:50 AM
Here is what my good friend (engineer with Cat) had to say about Cat diesels in MasterCrafts, FWIW...


"I don't believe Cat is working on anything for ski boat engines. We do make a lot of marine engines for larger vessels. However a diesel could make sense for wakebaord boats because of the added weight. I'm not sure the market would accept the very slight (under 1/4 second) turbo lag on typical diesel engines and if it was a naturally aspirated diesel, the engine would be even heavier to produce the same power. If they used a supercharger rather than a turbo charger, it eliminates any turbo lag. At lower rpm ranges, diesels have much better torque curves (torque is what matters, not horsepower) and are much more efficient.

Comparing the L18 with the Cat C-7: Basically the same HP for the Cat but double the torque. With the right v-drive gear ratio and prop combination, the Cat C-7 should significantly outperform the L18 even considering the added weight (considered a bonus for wakeboarders).

L18 (8.1L)
Weight: 800 - 900 lbs
HP: 450 hp
Torque: 505 ft-lbs

Cat C-7 (7.2L)
Weight: 1760 lbs
HP: 460 hp
Torque: 1050 ft-lbs"
Great idea; however, the capacity of the boat is 1770 so...that leaves roughly 800 lbs of people and stuff you can add once you bolt in the CAT. Oops forgot the transmission, for the CAT it is heavier and larger (due to torque output) so you are down to about 300 pounds of people and stuff, in other words it doens't work.

We've been there and done this, CATS (or real diesels) and there is not enough room or capacity, you cannot get enough air to it (diesels need A LOT of air) you cannot cool it (they almost all use inter and after coolers), most weigh too much (currently) and they cost big bucks ($24,000+). Those are the simple facts of marine diesels in a nut shell.

Rallyspitman
12-21-2006, 01:58 PM
yeah but think of the torqure that you would have to get out of the hole with that 355 HP

The torque : :D
The boost lag : :(

rcnjson
12-21-2006, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=MYMC]

(diesels need A LOT of air) you cannot cool it (they almost all use inter and after coolers)QUOTE]

I think a raw water to charged air intercooler would work awesome.

I maintain my stance on how cool a turbo diesel would be in a ski machine, but facts are facts. The diesel costs way more than a comparable gas engine and the diesel will be way heavier, sorry, thats the way it is.

I spend some time on the mustang forums too and there is quite a bit of chatter about putting the 'Stroke in a fox body mustang. Nobody (to my knowledge) has done it. Similar reasons, even with a beefed up front suspension, there is no way the front subframe will support that kind of weight. While extremely cool, not likely
k

bigmac
12-22-2006, 05:11 AM
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006055.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006051.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006053.jpg

http://steyr-motors.com/products/images/c_256.jpg


From another boat plant in Tennessee (http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7659&st=0).

Rallyspitman
12-22-2006, 06:07 AM
VW V10 5.0 TDi engine
Performance - 313 bhp, 450Nm (yes I know, I mix metric and imperial units!) (Could be much more for marine duty cycle)
Weight - 240Kg
Fuel consumption - Low
Emissions - Low
Noise - Low
Price - Very, very high.........

There are several other european offerings that could be had from passenger car manufacturers such as BMW and Audi, using aluminium and CGI blocks that will outperform an iron block gasoline V8 in a boat in every way. IMHO the only single reason for not having these diesels in our boats, is that we're not prepared to pay the high price. We would be prepared to pay the low additional price for an industrial, off highway based diesel, but then we'd get a tractor engine with lower performance, and very heavy......I'll keep the Ford V8 please... But it will come, as high performance diesel road cars become more commonplace, and based on the number of high performance diesels road cars now it won't be long now. I don't really follow the car market in the US but in europe, the gasoline engine is dead!!!:(

Fyi a Vw 5.0L TDI V10 costs $27000 equivalent, over the counter in my local dealer. And that's without electronics.

Chief
12-22-2006, 06:24 AM
The oil change would be expensive and cumbersome! I know when I pull the cork on my 7.3 diesel its 15 quarts of mess and not to mention the huge filter that holds about 2.5 quarts it's self. Then the disposal of all that oil. Dealers would like though, think how much you would pay for a 15 quart oil change.

Then what type of transmission would you have to hook to that monster?

It would be nice to use half the fuel though, if it were efficient. I hear a lot of banter about how efficient diesels are: "I get 25 MPG with my Cummings" "I get 25 MPG 7.3 Powerstroke". Well I get 15/17 MPG with my stock 7.3 which is more realistic or truthful in other words.


Ski boats are meant to have those awesome sounding V8 gasoline engines and not sound like the city garbage truck.

If I leave for work early on garbage day I see the neighbors frantically running out of the house to get thier garbage cans to the curb. :)

MYMC
12-22-2006, 10:39 AM
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006055.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006051.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Trentster_5172/Tennesee2006053.jpg

http://steyr-motors.com/products/images/c_256.jpg


From another boat plant in Tennessee (http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7659&st=0).
Anyone ever heard of a broom in that plant, what a mess. That engine looks heavy just sitting there!

Not sure about gas being "dead" in Europe...but this whole discussion comes down to the future and really diesel is another dead dinosaur. I'm not sure you can justify the economic investment for the freshwater marine industry in infrastructure when eventually all roads lead to another alternative source of fuel anyway. If you factor the time and money we ought to be onto the next non-renewable energy source about the time this gets finished. Let Europe have the diesel boats (better than LPG) and well keep the gas stuff (were set up for it) and lets all work together on something we can all live with for the future cause neither of these is the answer long term.

bigmac
12-22-2006, 10:47 AM
Anyone ever heard of a broom in that plant, what a mess. That engine looks heavy just sitting there!





Yeh, I agree...that engine is a behemoth. Certainly not as elegant as an MCX.

Sodar
12-22-2006, 10:48 AM
That thing looks REAL heavy. Pretty cool though! I would love to hear the turbo kick in, followed by the WOM WOM WOM WOM WOM sound that comes from diesels...

Chief
12-22-2006, 10:51 AM
That thing looks REAL heavy. Pretty cool though! I would love to hear the turbo kick in, followed by the WOM WOM WOM WOM WOM sound that comes from diesels...

I thought the sound was yang, yang, yang, yang then the sweet turbo sound then yang, yang, yang.

Sodar
12-22-2006, 10:59 AM
I thought the sound was yang, yang, yang, yang then the sweet turbo sound then yang, yang, yang.


NO NO... you have it all wrong! :D :mad: :D

Sodar
12-22-2006, 11:10 AM
DEAR SANTA!!!
http://www.bankspower.com/Twin-Turbo-images/TTurbo-frontleftquarte-lg.jpg

rcnjson
12-22-2006, 12:07 PM
DEAR SANTA!!!


Thats a chevy motor, this is more like it... you know just your average 1000HP small block ford
k

MYMC
12-22-2006, 12:48 PM
Dear Santa:

Maybe if we used "real" engines we wouldn't need to resort to misleading ads?

rcnjson
12-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Although it is painted like a cat motor, that is clearly an Italian job.
Where's the hair dryer?
k

MYMC
12-22-2006, 01:39 PM
Although it is painted like a cat motor, that is clearly an Italian job.
Where's the hair dryer?
k
Lamborghini offshore world championship engine...with this kind of power you don't need no stinking hair dryer!:D

kah68
12-23-2006, 10:09 AM
And at only 355mhp for that 1600lbs, I'd rather the MCX.....;) However, for the 1600# I'd like the assurance I could leave it running FOREVER....:cool:


Don't look at the H.P. Look at the Torque, also look at the power curve. Properly geared you will run lower RPM at peak power out put. If you think about the gas motor's running near or at max rpm in some situations the diesel motor shoud see far longer life and should also offer much higher resale. The only thing I would like to know is how the exhaust smell riding behind the boat. Oh and the 'leaving it running forever' is ok as long as it's under load, but a bad idea to leave it idling for extended periods.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-26-2006, 08:23 AM
Don't look at the H.P. Look at the Torque, also look at the power curve. Properly geared you will run lower RPM at peak power out put. If you think about the gas motor's running near or at max rpm in some situations the diesel motor shoud see far longer life and should also offer much higher resale. The only thing I would like to know is how the exhaust smell riding behind the boat. Oh and the 'leaving it running forever' is ok as long as it's under load, but a bad idea to leave it idling for extended periods.
Sorry, I must not have used enough appropriate..:rolleyes: ....:rolleyes: ....:rolleyes: ....;) in my post.

MYMC
12-27-2006, 09:30 AM
Don't look at the H.P. Look at the Torque.
Don't forget to look at the bill of sale as well.:D