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LakePirate
12-14-2006, 10:03 AM
Link 1 (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/2006/12/13/1214metpotter.html)


Link 2 (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1199/potter.html)


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/LakePirate/BombTech_Black.jpg

chudson
12-14-2006, 10:18 AM
These people are nuckin futz, they probably have a leader who will be passin out the koolaide (ala Jim Jones) if things don't go their way, if ya know what I mean!!!
I like the shirt by the way!!!

JimN
12-14-2006, 10:29 AM
You did see the links on the left side in the second link, right? I think that's a satirical site, not a real one. Nothing to get all bundled up about.

The first one, OTH, is just a bunch of ignorant people, too inbred and isolated from the rest of the world to know what fiction is.

I'm personally not a big fan of T shirts like this one but it makes some people laugh and it's not really going to hurt anyone unless they knew/were related to a bomb tech who dies or was maimed by a bomb.

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 10:38 AM
You did see the links on the left side in the second link, right? I think that's a satirical site, not a real one. Nothing to get all bundled up about.

The first one, OTH, is just a bunch of ignorant people, too inbred and isolated from the rest of the world to know what fiction is.

I'm personally not a big fan of T shirts like this one but it makes some people laugh and it's not really going to hurt anyone unless they knew/were related to a bomb tech who dies or was maimed by a bomb.

Caught me....:D


No disrespect to anyone with the T-Shirt. Just thought it was appropriate for the situation.

chudson
12-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Got me, boy do I feel used!!!

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 10:56 AM
The AJC Article - Link 1 is true.

Harvey
12-14-2006, 11:21 AM
I personally think that if you can get a kid interested in reading then the material shouldn't much matter. I didn't really enjoy reading until I picked up a book at the age of 16 that was not assigned. Yes, the book that sparked my reading was Catcher in the Rye which interestingly enough was not taught at any level of my education. If you can get a kid interested in reading by using comic books then go for it. You can always explain to them that what they read is not reality or necessarily an acceptible practice but you can't force feed them the importance of reading. The more they enjoy reading the more likely they are to learn from it. You can learn something from reading anything, even Harry Potter books, given the right perspective about the reading material.

Sorry, I think that the written word is man's defining characteristic and when people want to inhibit any kind of reading material I get upset. Rant over.

JimN
12-14-2006, 11:26 AM
"The AJC Article - Link 1 is true."

Yeah, well Kansas is still teaching Creationism, IIRC. In public schools!

Re: the T shirt- I have a friend who wanted to have a bunch of shirts printed after the OK City Federal building incident. He was having a hard time deciding whether he should use "I got bombed in OK City" or "I got blasted in OK City".

jimmer2880
12-14-2006, 11:52 AM
"The AJC Article - Link 1 is true."

Yeah, well Kansas is still teaching Creationism, IIRC. In public schools!

Re: the T shirt- I have a friend who wanted to have a bunch of shirts printed after the OK City Federal building incident. He was having a hard time deciding whether he should use "I got bombed in OK City" or "I got blasted in OK City".

Ok - here goes the threadjack. I think that BOTH Creationism AND Evolution need to be taught in school since BOTH are still theories. If there are 2 popular theories on the same subject, it would be wrong to only teach one of them. My personal believe is a combination of the 2. If BOTH were not taught when I was in school, I'd probably feel otherwise.

JimN
12-14-2006, 12:03 PM
OK, but this opens up the debate on whether religion should be taught in public schools. If it's taught as theory, that's one thing. If the proof is in the favor of one over the other, they need to state that, too. Science is all about curiosity and religion is based in faith. Wonderment is different from curiosity. More people believe in A God than in the way Christians interpret the Bible. That being the case, I think they have less of a problem with 'Under God' in the pledge and on money. The agnostics, Buddhists and atheists are the ones making the majority change their ways, although I don't remember hearing that the Buddhists have ever tried to omit 'Under God'.

I was watching a show and they had an atheist on who said that he thinks 'Under God' should be removed from the Pledge and that the Ten Commandments shouldn't be on public grounds, like in front of libraries and courthouses. He doesn't think, however, that it should be removed from money. WTH? If he's a typical example, they should just blow them off completely when they file lawsuits if they can't even be consistent in their thinking.

Jesus_Freak
12-14-2006, 12:23 PM
...well Kansas is still teaching Creationism, IIRC. In public schools...

Whoa there my noble, knowledgable, and respected TMC comrad. May I humbly add that it takes no more faith to believe in a Creator than it does to believe that....: Somehow a speck of all the mass and energy in the universe appeared. Without any external forces, it exploded, magically. With the explosive scattering, came re-organization into amazingly designed orbits, physical laws, and humans. DNA somehow adds building blocks during mutation, even though we continue to show that it does the exact opposite.

Book after book has been written on this debate. We wont solve it here ;).

JimN
12-14-2006, 12:31 PM
What you quoted sounds like Intelligent Design and no, we won't settle this here.

TMCNo1
12-14-2006, 12:43 PM
Does this also mean that "Hot Rod" will be removed from the magazine rack in our kids school library.

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 12:45 PM
What you quoted sounds like Intelligent Design and no, we won't settle this here.


Hence the t-shirt.

:D

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 12:46 PM
Does this also mean that "Hot Rod" will be removed from the magazine rack in our kids school library.


You said Rod.....

Insert No1's pick of pot being stirred.

Harvey
12-14-2006, 12:48 PM
Whoa there my noble, knowledgable, and respected TMC comrad. May I humbly add that it takes no more faith to believe in a Creator than it does to believe that....: Somehow a speck of all the mass and energy in the universe appeared. Without any external forces, it exploded, magically. With the explosive scattering, came re-organization into amazingly designed orbits, physical laws, and humans. DNA somehow adds building blocks during mutation, even though we continue to show that it does the exact opposite.

Book after book has been written on this debate. We wont solve it here ;).

You are right we won't solve it and mankind may never but lets not muddle the waters to spur faith based debate.

The big distinction between religion and science is that science is epistimological and religion is faith based. The theory of the big bang could change with more scientific evidence and in fact it has changed. Scientists are now theorizing that the universe has always existed and it is in a constant flux. The big bang was just the beginning of a new cycle. The universe expands then contracts, once it contracts to a point of extreme heat and compression it then explodes and repeats the process again (so far there is epistimological evidence to support this theory). Now, if I understand you correctly, I will agree with you that if you believe in the theory (which is not the principle behind science, it is epistimological not faith based) then it is in essence the same as religion. However, a knowledgable person will accept that a theory is just an idea until the scientific evidence is proven to support the theory, if the evidence contradicts the theory then the hypothosis is changed to provide a different theory.

Don't muddle faith and epistimological evidence. You can say that we may never find the scientific proof to validate the theory but do not reduce it to taking the theory on faith. Only a scientific fool would take a theory based on faith.

Monte
12-14-2006, 12:58 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=epistemological

Nope this won't get solved here!

TMCNo1
12-14-2006, 01:07 PM
You said Rod.....

Insert No1's pick of pot being stirred.


Nope, not that one! The one about street cars, drag racing, street rods, custom cars, etc. Next thing to go in schools will be the cartoon section in the daily newspaper!:rolleyes:

TMCNo1
12-14-2006, 01:12 PM
[QUOTE=Harvey]. The theory of the big bang could change with more scientific evidence and in fact it has changed. The big bang was just the beginning of a new cycle. QUOTE]


That reminds me, does anyone have fireworks for New Years Eve?

BIGBADBLUE
12-14-2006, 01:52 PM
Man ... all this over Harry Potter!!!

I can not wait until Book #7 and the realease of OOTP movie. the HP books really got my daughter into reading. We are Christians and I absolutely allow my kids to read HP. Did anyone read Sci-FI when they were younger? Lord of the Rings? Come on this is fiction and we talk to our kids about what is fact and what is fiction and they are very clear on it. It gives us a great time to discuss God and the world around us.

The evolution vs. creation will not be solved on this thread. Neither have yet been proven by science, however, when you do the research you will find that creationism is much closer to being proven than evolution.

Go check out Ken Ham's website ... http://www.answersingenesis.org/

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 02:23 PM
I apologize for starting this thread.

I in no way intended this to become a debate of evolution vs. creationism.

It was just funny to me that in 2006 people are still trying to ban books.

BIGBADBLUE
12-14-2006, 02:28 PM
I agree with you ... banning books is ignorant. the interesting part of this it really has a reverse effect on what the people trying to ban the book want. It usually becomes more popular and more people read it. :)

I did not mean to debate the issue ... just threw out my opinion

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 02:44 PM
I agree with you ... banning books is ignorant. the interesting part of this it really has a reverse effect on what the people trying to ban the book want. It usually becomes more popular and more people read it. :)

I did not mean to debate the issue ... just threw out my opinion


Don't think Harry Potter really even needed any help.

BIGBADBLUE
12-14-2006, 02:55 PM
Exactly. I started reading them with my daughter and they are awesome. I have read thru the series 4 times. I love the way she writes.

88 PS190
12-14-2006, 03:54 PM
People are rediculous... That's all.

JimN
12-14-2006, 04:32 PM
Lake- I don't think you need to apologize. It's good to discuss things like this and learn how others think and feel about them. Sure beats talking about something useless.

What if some group published a book that gave instructions on how to do away with anyone who's not in that group and people started acting on it, killing hundreds of thousands is a short period? Would it be worth pulling it from the shelves then? What if it looked like the plan would succeed?

I personally wouldn't have a problem with pulling a book like that but a line has to be drawn.

Anyone who has a problem discerning fact from fiction has a problem.

It's a slippery slope.

LakePirate
12-14-2006, 05:02 PM
Lake- I don't think you need to apologize. It's good to discuss things like this and learn how others think and feel about them. Sure beats talking about something useless.

What if some group published a book that gave instructions on how to do away with anyone who's not in that group and people started acting on it, killing hundreds of thousands is a short period? Would it be worth pulling it from the shelves then? What if it looked like the plan would succeed?

I personally wouldn't have a problem with pulling a book like that but a line has to be drawn.

Anyone who has a problem discerning fact from fiction has a problem.

It's a slippery slope.

Jim there are currently books out there that tell you how to do that, you can find them in the History Section of your bookstore. This type of thing is currently taking place in Africa, no book required. Information and entertainment are just that. It is the individuals and their ability or inability to process what they see/read/are told that concerns me.

JimN
12-14-2006, 05:15 PM
"It is the individuals and their ability or inability to process what they see/read/are told that concerns me."

I agree completely.

Harvey
12-14-2006, 06:37 PM
Jim there are currently books out there that tell you how to do that, you can find them in the History Section of your bookstore. This type of thing is currently taking place in Africa, no book required. Information and entertainment are just that.
You can find Mein Kampf in most college libraries and even some public. There are plenty of people reading about opinions that can threaten to ruin the world, but again the defining point is all in the perspective you take.


It is the individuals and their ability or inability to process what they see/read/are told that concerns me.

I agree completely as exhibited below
You can learn something from reading anything, even Harry Potter books, given the right perspective about the reading material.

It is ALL about perspective on the subject. Critically thinking is one of the most important things a student can learn.

suedv
12-14-2006, 11:13 PM
I spent 12 years on our city's library board, 6 as president. It was amazing what we dealt with over those years. We had several people ask us to ban books or put restrictions on certain books for certain age groups. We took the position it is up to the parents to supervise their kids in the library, to help their kids make good choices in what to read, and to teach them their own family values. We would not put our librarians in a position where they had to act in place of a parent.

It was not up to us to decide which child was mature or what their family's values might be.

We had qualified librarians building our collection. They selected a diverse group of books that would allow people to read, learn, and look at things from different perspectives.

I always wondered where on earth would you draw the line if you started banning books on values or perspectives. The person who wants one book banned would be horrified if a book that went along with their values was pulled from the shelf.

Some of the best books are books that were banned by someone in the past.

Leroy
12-14-2006, 11:34 PM
I think this is the big word of the day!
e·pis·te·mol·o·gy NOUN: The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.

As a Catholic and electrical engineer I can just as easily imagine big bang being the creation of the world by God. I can't imagine a big bang and a Mastercraft PS197 sitting there and human life is much more complicated. It's an interesting discussion if everyone can keep an open mind and stay respectful of the fact we each have a view on this.

I agree with you Sue, when we lived in Belgium they always said Americans have a hard time being parents and want someone else or technology to cover for them, ie movie ratings, tv show ratings and this.


I spent 12 years on our city's library board, 6 as president. It was amazing what if dealt with over those years. We had several people ask us to ban books or put restrictions on certain books for certain age groups. We took the position it is up to the parents to supervise their kids in the library, to help their kids make good choices in what to read, and to teach them their own family values. We would not put our librarians in a position where they had to act in place of a parent.

It was not up to us to decide which child was mature or what their family's values might be.

We had qualified librarians building our collection. They selected a diverse group of books that would allow people to read, learn, and look at things from different perspectives.

I always wondered where on earth would you draw the line if you started banning books on values or perspectives. The person who wants one book banned would be horrified if a book that went along with their values was pulled from the shelf.

Some of the best books are books that were banned by someone in the past.

Harvey
12-15-2006, 10:39 AM
I think this is the big word of the day!
e•pis•te•mol•o•gy NOUN: The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.

As a Catholic and electrical engineer I can just as easily imagine big bang being the creation of the world by God. I can't imagine a big bang and a Mastercraft PS197 sitting there and human life is much more complicated.

I have been studying religion and philosophy since college. I even minored in it. From an objective viewpoint the fundamental distinction between religion and science is the basis for knowledge. In philosophy and science we are concerned with empirical data (i.e. things we can know based on experience and observation) while the basis for knowledge in religion is faith. Objectively, neither one is better than the other. To illustrate the point further, the scientist says he knows that butterflies spend their early lives as caterpillars because he can observe it with his senses (i.e. often times he uses tools to aid his sense but in the end he uses his five senses to know things). The theologian cannot ultimately sense god through the five senses even with high tech equipment, he must ultimately take the burning bush as God's will based on his faith. In both cases the person makes a substantive claim to know a particular thing. The distinction becomes how they justify that claim.

My own opinion (BEWARE): I have a hard time, when science is concerned, buying the idea that the almost perfect working order of the universe is just a random set of things that come together so well. I think, like Leroy, that God probably set up the guidelines and got the ball rolling.

If I am getting to deep or offend anyone please someone let me know I will shut my trap.

TMCNo1
12-15-2006, 10:45 AM
I got a question, where does the universe end? Beware, if you think about it too long it might drive you crazy, bubbubbubbubbubbubbubbubbub!

chudson
12-15-2006, 11:06 AM
I enjoy this when we can be serious and then laugh on the next post. Congradulations Sue for doing so much for your Community, we need more people like you. My wife is finishing 8 years next March on our school board 4 as President. What a thankless job luckily she didn't do it for the pat on the back and I would bet you didn't either!!!!

Jesus_Freak
12-15-2006, 11:38 AM
...However, a knowledgable person will accept that a theory is just an idea until the scientific evidence is proven to support the theory, if the evidence contradicts the theory then the hypothosis is changed to provide a different theory....

Fully agree and appreciate your insight, along with everyone on this forum. I learn much for everyone here. I really do appreciate you all.

My only point was that, as a published researcher and a Christian, I have found amazement at the general scientific community's acceptance of a theory about which all of our experimentation shows the opposite. We can discuss various paths, convolutions of theories, and philosophies, but all of our experimentation shows that DNA cannot be added to through mutation. This is the fundmental basis for an accidental human life occurence. Why continue to subscribe to something our testing denies? I was calling this a step of faith. Only, instead of faith in a supreme Being, it is faith in humanity...that we will someday find the key.

JimN
12-15-2006, 12:09 PM
Harvey- the order of the universe being predetermined is what Intelligent Design is all about, right?

For a long time, I have wondered why science/religion chasm couldn't be closed by asking "what if the way things are is part of the plan? Why couldn't it be that and we just need to find out for ourselves, maybe with an occasional nudge in the right direction? There have been periods of incredible enlightenment throughout history and long gaps where nothing much happened.

Jesus_Freak
12-15-2006, 12:14 PM
Harvey- the order of the universe being predetermined is what Intelligent Design is all about, right?

For a long time, I have wondered why science/religion chasm couldn't be closed by asking "what if the way things are is part of the plan? Why couldn't it be that and we just need to find out for ourselves, maybe with an occasional nudge in the right direction? There have been periods of incredible enlightenment throughout history and long gaps where nothing much happened.

You didnt ask me, but I liked what you said so much that I decided to chime :D . There is only a perceived chasm between science and religion. They co-exist in my mind and many researchers I know. Science is a means of carefully and thoughtfully exploring what HE has already given us. Yes, and we certainly need nudging. I know I do.:)

JimN
12-15-2006, 12:35 PM
By chasm, I mean in faith vs scientific evidence. There have been very religious scientists and very scientific religious scholars but they often had conflicts. The Church held the belief that the Earth was the center of the Universe and Galileo was ex-communicated for proving Copernicus' theory that the Church's belief was wrong.

Newton wrote more about religion than math and science.

Jesus_Freak
12-15-2006, 12:42 PM
By chasm, I mean in faith vs scientific evidence. There have been very religious scientists and very scientific religious scholars but they often had conflicts. The Church held the belief that the Earth was the center of the Universe and Galileo was ex-communicated for proving Copernicus' theory that the Church's belief was wrong...Newton wrote more about religion than math and science.

Great points and further proof of your "humans need nudging" theory. We continually make mistakes in the name of both. :)

Harvey
12-15-2006, 04:30 PM
By chasm, I mean in faith vs scientific evidence. There have been very religious scientists and very scientific religious scholars but they often had conflicts. The Church held the belief that the Earth was the center of the Universe and Galileo was ex-communicated for proving Copernicus' theory that the Church's belief was wrong.

The odd thing in the above post is the use of the word Church. Religion and Church may not follow hand in hand. Churches are run by men, men often make poor decision and can be influenced by outside motives (their own or others). You can have a faith v empirical science argument, but you will get nowhere. It is like arguing which are better apples or oranges. You are comparing two VERY different things.

You did happen on to an interesting question that I have been unable to answer for years. Scientists throughout history, for the most part, hold religion in very high regard. Why? Did they do so to avoid persecution, or accusations of heresy? Maybe. Or did they hold religious beliefs because there is a fundamental question that they knew they could never answer? I tend to think that they were very smart and realized that ultimately they could not answer the ultimate question. Why are we here? Even if the big bang theory is true they are still left with the question of what created the infinitely small mass that exploded to create us all.

If anyone is interested in some reading on this PM me and I will be glad to direct you to readings based both in religion and science that can illustrate things further.

Jesus_Freak
12-15-2006, 04:42 PM
The odd thing...can illustrate things further.

Extremely well put.

With no intent to compete with Harvey :) , but only to offer options: I would also have resources available via PM.

Harvey
12-15-2006, 05:03 PM
Extremely well put.

With no intent to compete with Harvey :) , but only to offer options: I would also have resources available via PM.

Thanks. And there is no competition, I may be well read but I by no means have read everything on the subject. :) I am a constantly learning student.

JimN
12-15-2006, 05:09 PM
Harvey- I used Church instead of the Roman Catholic Church because that's how much power it had at the time. Galileo was excommunicated for heresy because of his assertion that Earth wasn't the center of the universe, as the Church said. He wasn't as afraid as some about what could happen but I doubt he liked being under house arrest for as long as he was. This happened in the 16th century and yes, they were absolutely fearful that what they said could get them killed if it didn't agree with the Church.

I'm sure having questions that couldn't be answered was part of it for some but if you think about the average intelligence at the time, it probably didn't take much to amaze people. Another part is that there were questions that nobody dared to ask for fear of invoking the wrath of the Church.

"I tend to think that they were very smart"

Some people were smart but this was in medieval times, and there were huge numbers wiped out by the Plagues, wars, disease that wasn't as rampant as Plague and peasants usually didn't go to school unless they were taken in by the landlord.

It wasn't an incredibly small mass, it was an infinitely small volume of all of the matter that exists in the universe.

Check out 'A Brief History of Time', by Stephen Hawking.

JimN
12-15-2006, 05:14 PM
"You can have a faith v empirical science argument, but you will get nowhere. It is like arguing which are better apples or oranges. You are comparing two VERY different things."

Right- that's one reason I think the issue hasn't been resolved by the two communities. Scientists believe it when they can see it and the religious have faith that things are the way they are because God intended it to be.

JimN
12-15-2006, 05:18 PM
"Science is a means of carefully and thoughtfully exploring what HE has already given us."

This statement goes against science. Science wants proof that God exists and religious people have faith that there is a God.

A person can reconcile it in their mind but there will always be someone to tell that person they're wrong. Worse yet is the fact that there is always someone willing to kill over this difference.

Harvey
12-15-2006, 05:53 PM
Harvey- I used Church instead of the Roman Catholic Church because that's how much power it had at the time. Galileo was excommunicated for heresy because of his assertion that Earth wasn't the center of the universe, as the Church said. He wasn't as afraid as some about what could happen but I doubt he liked being under house arrest for as long as he was. This happened in the 16th century and yes, they were absolutely fearful that what they said could get them killed if it didn't agree with the Church.

The Roman Catholic Church still has power and so do other Churches. ;)

I do think that it was a mixture between fear of death and the ultimate question that motivated scientists of that time but I didn't have the pleasure of talking with Galileo about the issue so I question the degree of each.

"I tend to think that they were very smart"

Some people were smart but this was in medieval times, and there were huge numbers wiped out by the Plagues, wars, disease that wasn't as rampant as Plague and peasants usually didn't go to school unless they were taken in by the landlord.

The average level of intelligence has little to do with whether these men were smart. Intelligence is something different than knowledge. :)

It wasn't an incredibly small mass, it was an infinitely small volume of all of the matter that exists in the universe.

Check out 'A Brief History of Time', by Stephen Hawking.

Yeah, I screwed that up. I meant enornmous mass contained in a small volume. I have been trying to work finance deals and type theory at the same time, not a good combo. :(

And I have read 'A Brief History of Time'. Another good one on the science side is 'On the Shoulders of Giants' by Hawking. It will give you a good history of the major scientific thinkers.

Another good bit of reading rooted in religion is St Thomas Aquinas' umoved mover argument. There are some very forward thinking theologians out there who have tried to provide empirical arguments to circumvent the necessity for faith. They are compelling although futile.

Harvey
12-15-2006, 06:00 PM
Science is a means of carefully and thoughtfully exploring what HE has already given us.

I think you are trying to say that it is possible that God gave us the "medium" of science to explain the world. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

JimN
12-15-2006, 06:41 PM
"The Roman Catholic Church still has power and so do other Churches. "

Compare the RC Church's power in the 16th century with any other Church of the day. Henry VIII had just formed the Church of England because the RC Church wouldn't let him divorce his wife and one of the problems of the time was that the Church, for all intents and purposes, had more power than a lot of governments.

jimmer2880
12-16-2006, 07:20 PM
So, what's so wrong with saying that some higher power created everything. However, everything was created in the manner in which science has given it's theories. So, the 6 days were actually millions of years. Kind of like the riddle of the sphinx, only bigger... and - different.:rolleyes:

Leroy
12-16-2006, 07:55 PM
WOW, I'm agreeing with Jesus Freak, JimN, and Harvey on this! I also believe there isn't a gap between science and creation and evolution. I believe it ties together more and more every day.

You didnt ask me, but I liked what you said so much that I decided to chime :D . There is only a perceived chasm between science and religion. They co-exist in my mind and many researchers I know. Science is a means of carefully and thoughtfully exploring what HE has already given us. Yes, and we certainly need nudging. I know I do.:)

jakethebt
12-18-2006, 12:59 PM
WOW… how thread jacked is this one…

Soap Box #1: Back to Harry Potter. I don’t like talking about him, because it just fuels the fire more. However… if you use the argument that it is the only way to get my kid to read, then you are a bad parent. Ouch… did that hurt? There a Billions of books out there, get involved and figure out what you kid is into and find books that they ARE interested it. (This is called parenting). Is the only thing you kid into is wizards and witch craft? I doubt it. There are even controversial books out there on non-demonic topics that would be better.:rant:

Soap Box #2: I live in Ohio. Creation is not taught here in public schools. It takes a lot more faith to believe that I came from monkeys than some superior being created me. I have been to the Zoo, seen an Ape crap in his hand and begin to eat it. I seriously hope that we did not come from them. As for the science, if you have actually researched it lately (like that answers in genesis web link posted here early in the thread) than the science & history prove the bible more every day. We won’t solve this here… I know... but did you know that Darwin discredited his own theory? He said that if it was true, then we should have found fossils by now. So, if he disproved it himself, why does everybody still believe it? I propose it is because they just want anything to be true but the bible.

Bringing this back to boating… perhaps the people that believe in Darwin and evolution should stop boating. They are jeopardizing the future of tad poles that could evolve into humans!!!!

H20skeefreek
12-18-2006, 01:20 PM
We will never know the answer of how it all began for sure, we can only CHOOSE to believe one or more possible hypothesese (this is faith). I personally choose to believe that God put everything in motion, being all knowing, he knew how it'd turn out (including evolution).

Will we ever KNOW how it began? NO, not while we are on earth.
Will we ever KNOW that there is a God? NO, not while we are on earth.
Will we ever KNOW why we are here? NO, Not while we are on earth.

I choose to believe that God put everything into motion.

I choose to believe that there is a God, whom loved us so much that He sent His Son to die on a cross for us, even though we don't deserve it at all.

I choose to believe that God put us here, so that we could proclaim His Glory from the mountain-tops. He put us here to witness his miracles: Mountiains, lakes, streams, childbirth, EVOLUTION, flowers blooming, volcanoes forming, photosynthesis, osmosis, a catapillar changing to a butterfly (sorry, I can't remember the name of that process, it's been a few years since I've taken a science class), man discovering how to fly, creating the automobile, inventing waterskiing and someone getting to 43off and last of all world peace (don't worry, it'll happen).

Forgive me for my rant, one that brought up a dormant controversial thread, but I thought I should chime in nonetheless.

As far as the book burning/banning goes: Whether you believe in God or not, we all know that humans have free will. It's in the Bible, and it's in our Bill of Rights. If you want to publish a book, whether it's about hate and genocide or about witches and warlocks, or about the great things that Jesus has done for you, you have that right, and no man should ever prevent another from having that freedom of choice and free will. It is important however that you have the choice to prevent your children from having access to things that you believe may harm them, until they are of the age to make decisions for themselves. For me, my kids won't read Harry Potter, but I don't care if your kid does, I just hope that you let them know that it's fiction, and there are better stories out there.

chudson
12-18-2006, 01:49 PM
If we evolved from Apes why are there still Apes, were the ones that remain just slow learners? Do they ride the short bus at the Zoo? By the way that^^^^ was not an original thought I heard it somewhere else!!!

H20skeefreek
12-18-2006, 02:18 PM
Chudson, the popular scientific belief is NOT that man evolved from apes, but that the apes and other primates including humans evolved from the same "missing link". That missing link doesn't exist any more, that's why it's "missing".

chudson
12-18-2006, 02:35 PM
H2O just tryin to throw a little fun in there Bud, I thought I succeded!

H20skeefreek
12-18-2006, 02:39 PM
Oh, I thought it was funny, I was just clarifying the popular belief. I hear the argument against evolution all the time that you gave, but that's not even the theory. I actually thought your original comment on apes crapping in thier hands and eating it was funnier.---Edit, oops, that was Jake, HILARIOUS!

BIGBADBLUE
12-18-2006, 02:57 PM
We will never know the answer of how it all began for sure, we can only CHOOSE to believe one or more possible hypothesese (this is faith). I personally choose to believe that God put everything in motion, being all knowing, he knew how it'd turn out (including evolution).

Will we ever KNOW how it began? NO, not while we are on earth.
Will we ever KNOW that there is a God? NO, not while we are on earth.
Will we ever KNOW why we are here? NO, Not while we are on earth.

I choose to believe that God put everything into motion.

I choose to believe that there is a God, whom loved us so much that He sent His Son to die on a cross for us, even though we don't deserve it at all.

I choose to believe that God put us here, so that we could proclaim His Glory from the mountain-tops. He put us here to witness his miracles: Mountiains, lakes, streams, childbirth, EVOLUTION, flowers blooming, volcanoes forming, photosynthesis, osmosis, a catapillar changing to a butterfly (sorry, I can't remember the name of that process, it's been a few years since I've taken a science class), man discovering how to fly, creating the automobile, inventing waterskiing and someone getting to 43off and last of all world peace (don't worry, it'll happen).

Forgive me for my rant, one that brought up a dormant controversial thread, but I thought I should chime in nonetheless.

As far as the book burning/banning goes: Whether you believe in God or not, we all know that humans have free will. It's in the Bible, and it's in our Bill of Rights. If you want to publish a book, whether it's about hate and genocide or about witches and warlocks, or about the great things that Jesus has done for you, you have that right, and no man should ever prevent another from having that freedom of choice and free will. It is important however that you have the choice to prevent your children from having access to things that you believe may harm them, until they are of the age to make decisions for themselves. For me, my kids won't read Harry Potter, but I don't care if your kid does, I just hope that you let them know that it's fiction, and there are better stories out there.


A minor point but very important - you do not choose to believe at all. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. We are saved through grace ... nothing of our own. Agreed that we have a free will to reject the Holy Spirit but not "accept" like so many churches teach today.

Harvey
12-18-2006, 06:11 PM
WOW… how thread jacked is this one…

We won’t solve this here… I know...
How true!

...did you know that Darwin discredited his own theory? He said that if it was true, then we should have found fossils by now.

He may have discredited his own theory but this was largely due to his ignorance in other areas of science (he was not an archeologist, or a geologist, and he certainly wasn't doing much digging for fossils in his spare time as he was sickly). When you use the words "by now" I assume you mean at the time of Darwin's death. We have since discovered MANY things that support the theory. Look at the Galapagos Islands or at a mammal embryo chart and you will see the scientific proof. I will concede that there are certain discoveries that seem to contradict the theory but part of the scientific process is to test theories with new evidence. If science comes across something that outwardly discredits the theory of evolution then we will hear about it, it will make front page news.

So, if he disproved it himself, why does everybody still believe it? I propose it is because they just want anything to be true but the bible.

People don't "believe" in a theory and if they do then they are scientific fools. You don't "believe" in a theory; you might have a hypothesis about it's validity but you should put no faith in it. And if you meant to ask "why do people still place value in the theory?" The answer is because the scientific evidence supports the theory thus far.