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Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 11:59 AM
Ok, I recently had a discussion with some about this. And I know there are opinions out there....;)
Let's say you have a (ONE) fire resistant lockable safe, say 45 min at 1200 degrees.
You have 100 - 45cal rounds, 100 - 22s, 100 - 9mm rounds, & 100 - 12 ga and you have the arms to match...
What goes in the safe?

BrianM
11-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Guns first then the rounds if you have room.

Leroy
11-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Are you worried about what happend in a fire or someone gets either gun or ammunition?

Ok, I recently had a discussion with some about this. And I know there are opinions out there....;)
Let's say you have a (ONE) fire resistant lockable safe, say 45 min at 1200 degrees.
You have 100 - 45cal rounds, 100 - 22s, 100 - 9mm rounds, & 100 - 12 ga and you have the arms to match...
What goes in the safe?

Foiler
11-18-2006, 01:38 PM
I assume you're afraid of the rounds going off and destoying your guns if your house caught on fire. I'm not sure what the auto ignition is on smokeless powder.

I'm sure you could check into it or to be safe just keep the amo seperate. We had a house fire, I was luckly and my guns survived.

I witnessed a house fire with lots of amo going off. It sure made the firemen jump but they kept working. I guess with both ends (shell and bullet) flying apart it's less powerful.
.

88 PS190
11-18-2006, 02:15 PM
I'd put the guns in the safe.

Ammo itsself needs the barrel to really get some velocity.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 02:53 PM
This person explained it to me this way. Storing ammo inside a fire resistant cabinet contains "alot" of powder and it will internally rise in temp and all at once it could go "off". Creating what could be explained as an explosion and might possibly turn said cabinet into shrapnel.
Now, if it were "exposed" to the fire, would "they" go off one at a time with little to no velocity and mearly just sound like loud fireworks? or even melt and create more of an inferno?


Yes Leroy theft is always a concern, but a different subject all together..;)

BriEOD
11-18-2006, 03:18 PM
The probabilty of tossing a box of ammunition into a fire and having the projectiles reach a veloctiy rate high enough to penetrate something is pretty minimal. I won't ever talk in absolutes. However, I have actually burned ammunition before (Middle East...EPA would have fined our @$$es big time in the US). The heat will actually cause the primer powder to reach a deflagatory temperature high enough to ignite the smokeless powder (Note: It's hard to find true "Black Powder" anymore. Most places carry Smokeless Powder or Pyrodex or something similar). When the powder deflagrates (burns under pressure) you will hear a "pop" (sounds like popcorn) and the projectile will seperate from the casing with some force. Enough force, to seperate the projo from the casing a few feet.

Again, I'm not going to talk in absolutes. However, I seriously doubt a bunch or rounds deflagrating in a gun safe would do any damage or cause structural damage. In fact, I'd be willing to bet one stick of dynamite would not cause metal seperation of most of the gun safes I have seen. What you have to understand is, yes, you have a lot of powder in the rounds, aggragately. If you pulled off all of the projos and poured all of the powder into a pipe and capped it, yes, you would do some damage. However, the powder is seperated in each round and all of those rounds together will not create enough pressure to do any real damage. Scare ya, hell yes. But enough to hurt you, I doubt it.

I've been to the Military Explosive Ordnance Disposal school and was a bomb tech for 8 years. So, my opinion is a little better than just pure speculation.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 04:03 PM
So, you say put them all in the safe.....?

BriEOD
11-18-2006, 04:05 PM
Yeah, I would. In fact, we have a safe at my detachment and we keep pistols, long guns, shot guns and all of the ammo in it. I wouldn't give it a second thought.

rem_pss308
11-18-2006, 06:53 PM
What BriEOD says is true, ammo (not in a gun ) will go off if burned. But will not ussually have any velocity. Now if it is in a gun chamber then watch out.
I would store my firearms in the safe, but not worry much about the ammo.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 07:56 PM
What BriEOD says is true, ammo (not in a gun ) will go off if burned. But will not ussually have any velocity. Now if it is in a gun chamber then watch out.
I would store my firearms in the safe, but not worry much about the ammo.
I ask...
Now who stores a pistol for protection without one in the chamber....But I got the point. And they don't ALL need to be loaded...
I'll make these great points next time the discussion comes up.

Leroy
11-18-2006, 09:03 PM
For fire protection why not build a cinder block or concrete room in the basement/mechanical room.

88 PS190
11-18-2006, 09:39 PM
have to also worry about humidity.

so in basements if you cinder block it off get a dehumidifyer.

I keep my ammo in a locked closet, but not a safe.

Guns in a safe.

BriEOD
11-18-2006, 09:56 PM
Bottom line...I don't care where you store either. But, make sure it is not accesible to kids.

jakethebt
11-18-2006, 10:00 PM
I would both the ammo and guns all in the fire safe. For security (kids & theft) as well as protection. Keep in mind that the fire safe will reduce the chance of the ammon ever reaching the temperature of concern. The safe will delay the chance that the fire will ever reach the ammo and may give you more time to get the heck out. If it gets hot enough in the safe for the ammon to explode, you are probably either out of the house or dead. Put everything in the safe... or if you dont like our answers, call mythbusters. That would make for a cool show!

BriEOD
11-18-2006, 10:09 PM
If it gets hot enough in the safe for the ammon to explode, you are probably either out of the house or dead. Put everything in the safe... or if you dont like our answers, call mythbusters. That would make for a cool show!
Not going to happen.

We destroyed 15,000 rounds of 5.56 ammunition via burning. We got a missile coffin (6x3ft aluminum metal bath tub looking thing) filled it with dunage, 50/50 diesel/gas a bag of smokeless powder, time fuse, M60 igniter and placed a sheet of chicken wire on top, then laid a heavy metal screen on the chicken wire and then laid another chicken wire sheet on that. We ignited and the dunnage started burning (all 15,000). Not one round, went through the screen or the aluminum coffin.

Based on my experience on this op, their is no way if the rounds did not penetrate the thin metal screen or the aluminum coffin that they would go through a gun safe.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 10:47 PM
cinder block or concrete .
I can't remember which, (or maybe both) explode with high heat.

Leroy
11-18-2006, 11:00 PM
WFT;
You aren't one of those terrorist are ya? Exploding concrete?

From Google search.

Although intrinsically fire resistant, concrete can under certain circumstances be subject to the violent phenomenon known as explosive spalling. Explosive spalling is most often encountered in the high-grade concrete mixes, employed in tunnels and high-rise structures. When high density concrete is subject to fire, moisture within the concrete attempts to escape from the heat source, but is unable to do so, given the lack of porosity of these types of concrete. Eventually, if the fire is allowed to develop over time, then internal stresses generated by the steam within the concrete surpasses the ability of the concrete to resist and large pieces of super heated concrete are violently exploded out of the structure.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-18-2006, 11:47 PM
WFT;
You aren't one of those terrorist are ya? Exploding concrete?

From Google search.

Although intrinsically fire resistant, concrete can under certain circumstances be subject to the violent phenomenon known as explosive spalling. Explosive spalling is most often encountered in the high-grade concrete mixes, employed in tunnels and high-rise structures. When high density concrete is subject to fire, moisture within the concrete attempts to escape from the heat source, but is unable to do so, given the lack of porosity of these types of concrete. Eventually, if the fire is allowed to develop over time, then internal stresses generated by the steam within the concrete surpasses the ability of the concrete to resist and large pieces of super heated concrete are violently exploded out of the structure.
Why would you ask me this, because I knew that happens?

Farmer Ted
11-18-2006, 11:56 PM
Not going to happen.

We destroyed 15,000 rounds of 5.56 ammunition via burning. We got a missile coffin (6x3ft aluminum metal bath tub looking thing) filled it with dunage, 50/50 diesel/gas a bag of smokeless powder, time fuse, M60 igniter and placed a sheet of chicken wire on top, then laid a heavy metal screen on the chicken wire and then laid another chicken wire sheet on that. We ignited and the dunnage started burning (all 15,000). Not one round, went through the screen or the aluminum coffin.

Based on my experience on this op, their is no way if the rounds did not penetrate the thin metal screen or the aluminum coffin that they would go through a gun safe.



How many beers did you have and who said "watch this shlt"?

Farmer Ted
11-18-2006, 11:57 PM
WFT;
You aren't one of those terrorist are ya? Exploding concrete?

From Google search.

Although intrinsically fire resistant, concrete can under certain circumstances be subject to the violent phenomenon known as explosive spalling. Explosive spalling is most often encountered in the high-grade concrete mixes, employed in tunnels and high-rise structures. When high density concrete is subject to fire, moisture within the concrete attempts to escape from the heat source, but is unable to do so, given the lack of porosity of these types of concrete. Eventually, if the fire is allowed to develop over time, then internal stresses generated by the steam within the concrete surpasses the ability of the concrete to resist and large pieces of super heated concrete are violently exploded out of the structure.


sounds like popcorn

BriEOD
11-19-2006, 07:45 AM
How many beers did you have and who said "watch this shlt"?
We were in Kuwait and all you could get was that "near beer" crap.