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milkmania
11-10-2006, 07:24 PM
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23374069-details/YouTube+video+of+violent+arrest+triggers+LAPD+prob e/article.do

be sure to scroll down to the youtube link!


the guy on the ground just won the lottery:rolleyes:

Maristar210
11-10-2006, 07:32 PM
Can't breathe = can't talk


What did this individual do to get in this position?

Pull a gun?
Run from the cops?
Take a swing at the cops?
Resist arrest on a trafiic stop arrest?


If he did any of those he deserves what he got.

EVERYONE IS A VICTIM

"I DID NOT DO ANYTHING........"

I feel no remorse

JimN
11-10-2006, 07:40 PM
He may think he won the lottery but evidence isn't supposed to be public until the trial is over and the defense is responsible for making it public.

Doug- how does this play out? Are they going to need a change in venue or does the defense team get disbarred and prosecuted?

LAPD does this all the time. They can't shoot, they can't stop chases and it's one of the largest police forces in the country.

Mag_Red
11-10-2006, 07:40 PM
Can't breathe = can't talk


What did this individual do to get in this position?

Pull a gun?
Run from the cops?
Take a swing at the cops?
Resist arrest on a trafiic stop arrest?


If he did any of those he deserves what he got.

EVERYONE IS A VICTIM

"I DID NOT DO ANYTHING........"

I feel no remorseI heard he had his hand on the officer's holster. Do you know how long it's been since a cop tried to beat the crap out of me??????????? Never!!!! Cause I don't give em a reason to8p

DanC
11-10-2006, 07:41 PM
I have no sympathy for people who resist arrest and he clearly was. Even after repeated blows to the face he still kept his arms rigid to prevent handcuffing.

JimN
11-10-2006, 07:45 PM
If he put his hand on the holster, the beating is just part of the "being a dirtbag" experience. Hopefully, if he did try to grab a gun from one or both of the cops, the person taping it got it in the shot.

Archimedes
11-10-2006, 07:47 PM
The only sad part about this situation is that none of the shots the cop got in were all that solid. For the grief that cop's created for himself, he's probably gonna wish he really smoked the guy at least once.

The whole story appears to be that this guy resisted arrest, punched the officers and also put his hand on the holster of one of them. It's always interesting that the home video, which is almost always shot by some other malcreant, magically starts when the beating is going on and not before. As far as I'm concerned, you resist arrest and you deserve whatever you get.

Maristar210
11-10-2006, 07:52 PM
The only sad part about this situation is that none of the shots the cop got in were all that solid. For the grief that cop's created for himself, he's probably gonna wish he really smoked the guy at least once.

The whole story appears to be that this guy resisted arrest, punched the officers and also put his hand on the holster of one of them. It's always interesting that the home video, which is almost always shot by some other malcreant, magically starts when the beating is going on and not before. As far as I'm concerned, you resist arrest and you deserve whatever you get.


If he truly reached for the holster he should have expected a barrel to the nose at the least or a round to the knee as SOP..

Steve

milkmania
11-10-2006, 08:29 PM
As far as I'm concerned, you resist arrest and you deserve whatever you get.

no ifs, ands, or buts!!!

I wasn't posting this to support either side...
I feel if you do not comply with an officer's instructions, you deserve a smack down on your ***.

but then again, are we to expect all cops are clean cops?:confused:

shakey ground here:rolleyes:

BriEOD
11-10-2006, 08:45 PM
I can rule in better on this then Doug.

First, let me say that video can be deceiving. While I was at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center during a Use of Force class, we were shown a video of two officers shooting a fleeing suspect. It appeared the guy was just running away. It looked bad for the officers. We then viewed a video from another angle that showed the guy had pulled out a black cell phone and pointed it at one of the other officers. It was dark and the guy was a fleeing felon. Two officers opened fire on the suspect and killed him. The second video validated their actions, however the first one did not.

Unfortunately, when law enforcement officers make mistakes people sometimes die. It's not like a mechanic breaking a bolt on an alternator. The Supreme Court Landmark case for deadly force is Tennessee vs. Garner. To justify deadly force, the court must rule the officer's actions were reasonable and would have or could have, been performed by another officer in the same situation.

The link does not state whether the guy was known to be armed, what happened, whether the guy was on PCP, etc. It is really easy to sit here and critique it. You put yourself in that situation. You get all jacked up with adrenalin and go wrestle some guy and have to put cuffs on him. It's not easy. I'll bet nothing happens to these guys. They are also protected from civil prosecution if the court decides their actions were reasonable.

Maristar210
11-10-2006, 08:48 PM
I can rule in better on this then Doug.

First, let me say that video can be deceiving. While I was at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center during a Use of Force class, we were shown a video of two officers shooting a fleeing suspect. It appeared the guy was just running away. It looked bad for the officers. We then viewed a video from another angle that showed the guy had pulled out a black cell phone and pointed it at one of the other officers. It was dark and the guy was a fleeing felon. Two officers opened fire on the suspect and killed him. The second video validated their actions, however the first one did not.

Unfortunately, when law enforcement officers make mistakes people sometimes die. It's not like a mechanic breaking a bolt on an alternator. The Supreme Court Landmark case for deadly force is Tennessee vs. Garner. To justify deadly force, the court must rule the officer's actions were reasonable and would have or could have, been performed by another officer in the same situation.

The link does not state whether the guy was known to be armed, what happened, whether the guy was on PCP, etc. It is really easy to sit here and critique it. You put yourself in that situation. You get all jacked up with adrenalin and go wrestle some guy and have to put cuffs on him. It's not easy. I'll bet nothing happens to these guys. They are also protected from civil prosecution if the court decides their actions were reasonable.


BriEOD

Man Law :toast:

BriEOD
11-10-2006, 09:10 PM
You know what sh!t like this really pisses me off. I'm not taking my frustration out on Brian (Milk), but it really does.

Americans and especially the media, places certain jobs under the microscope (law enforcement, military). This thread is just another example of that. I remember a few months ago they had a congressional investigation going on a few Marines that allegedly killed some civilians in Iraq. I'm not saying the military or law enforcement does not make mistakes. However, people are so quick to criticize, yet they have never been in a situation like the one in this thread. How about the next time a cars salesman makes a bad sale, or a mechanic charges to much we chastise them with out hearing their side. It's BS! We place 18-22 yr olds in Iraq and let them get shot at, blown up and beat on everyday. Yet when they make a mistake, because all of the afore mentioned things happen all the time and everyday, we hang them out to dry. What a crock of sh!t. Thanks a lot America, you bunch of @$$holes.

Rant over....

JimN
11-10-2006, 09:21 PM
Hopefully, the cops had a video recorder going when they went after him.

Brian- remember, this is America, where everyone's a freakin' expert.

Maristar210
11-10-2006, 09:27 PM
You know what sh!t like this really pisses me off. I'm not taking my frustration out on Brian (Milk), but it really does.

Americans and especially the media, places certain jobs under the microscope (law enforcement, military). This thread is just another example of that. I remember a few months ago they had a congressional investigation going on a few Marines that allegedly killed some civilians in Iraq. I'm not saying the military or law enforcement does not make mistakes. However, people are so quick to criticize, yet they have never been in a situation like the one in this thread. How about the next time a cars salesman makes a bad sale, or a mechanic charges to much we chastise them with out hearing their side. It's BS! We place 18-22 yr olds in Iraq and let them get shot at, blown up and beat on everyday. Yet when they make a mistake, because all of the afore mentioned things happen all the time and everyday, we hang them out to dry. What a crock of sh!t. Thanks a lot America, you bunch of @$$holes.

Rant over....


BriEOD,

Are you looking for a new neighbor? We could be quite a pair in an effort to fix what is wrong with a portion of our society.
I am with you if you do.

LOL LOL }}}}}}} Stevee

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-10-2006, 09:32 PM
Brieod, I hear you. loud and clear. on a semi-related note, you mentioned 2 things in your "rant" that got my attention. Car salesman, and mechanics. seeing thats been my area of occupation for 12 years, I hear negative shiot ALL the time from the general public, media, etc.. of how crooked "we" salesman and mechanics all are. We are a bunch of ruthless, crooked, no-good sunsa-biatches, and all we want to do is screw people over all day long, and then laugh all the way to the bank. while there are plenty of unscupulous car dealers that earn that reputation. However, there are some good ones. and it pizzes me off that we put effort and ethics into OUR personal work in the auto industry and it doesnt get noticed. Sure, it does by our customers that value us, but outside of that, no one cares. You meet someone and tell them your a car salesman, they look at you like you are the worst scum on the face of the earth. they treat you as such too. I remember reading a list of the most respected and least respected occupations. Car salesman rank right up there on the least respected list. Of course doctors and nurses and school teachers are up there on the most respected list. Now I have met some VERY dishonest, untrustworthy doctors, nurses, and teachers in my time, but I dont pre-judge all of their peers because of that.

the problem is generalization. we get scooped into preconcieved stereotypes, and dont even get a chance to get judged on our OWN merits.

rant over, the soap box is available.

Chief
11-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

JimN
11-10-2006, 10:27 PM
So Brian, what branch are you in now? FBI, ...? PM me if you want to keep it private.

Maristar210
11-10-2006, 10:28 PM
Brieod, I hear you. loud and clear. on a semi-related note, you mentioned 2 things in your "rant" that got my attention. Car salesman, and mechanics. seeing thats been my area of occupation for 12 years, I hear negative shiot ALL the time from the general public, media, etc.. of how crooked "we" salesman and mechanics all are. We are a bunch of ruthless, crooked, no-good sunsa-biatches, and all we want to do is screw people over all day long, and then laugh all the way to the bank. while there are plenty of unscupulous car dealers that earn that reputation. However, there are some good ones. and it pizzes me off that we put effort and ethics into OUR personal work in the auto industry and it doesnt get noticed. Sure, it does by our customers that value us, but outside of that, no one cares. You meet someone and tell them your a car salesman, they look at you like you are the worst scum on the face of the earth. they treat you as such too. I remember reading a list of the most respected and least respected occupations. Car salesman rank right up there on the least respected list. Of course doctors and nurses and school teachers are up there on the most respected list. Now I have met some VERY dishonest, untrustworthy doctors, nurses, and teachers in my time, but I dont pre-judge all of their peers because of that.

the problem is generalization. we get scooped into preconcieved stereotypes, and dont even get a chance to get judged on our OWN merits.

rant over, the soap box is available.


Good one UMP

You are progressing nicely..............

GO GO GO Unkown!!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-10-2006, 10:37 PM
Good one UMP

You are progressing nicely..............

GO GO GO Unkown!!
Unkown.....? you lose your spelling Steve?

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 08:18 AM
BriEOD,

Are you looking for a new neighbor? We could be quite a pair in an effort to fix what is wrong with a portion of our society.
I am with you if you do.

LOL LOL }}}}}}} Stevee
Hell yeah brother. Let's do it!!

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 08:21 AM
Brieod, I hear you. loud and clear. on a semi-related note, you mentioned 2 things in your "rant" that got my attention. Car salesman, and mechanics. seeing thats been my area of occupation for 12 years, I hear negative shiot ALL the time from the general public, media, etc.. of how crooked "we" salesman and mechanics all are. We are a bunch of ruthless, crooked, no-good sunsa-biatches, and all we want to do is screw people over all day long, and then laugh all the way to the bank. while there are plenty of unscupulous car dealers that earn that reputation. However, there are some good ones. and it pizzes me off that we put effort and ethics into OUR personal work in the auto industry and it doesnt get noticed. Sure, it does by our customers that value us, but outside of that, no one cares. You meet someone and tell them your a car salesman, they look at you like you are the worst scum on the face of the earth. they treat you as such too. I remember reading a list of the most respected and least respected occupations. Car salesman rank right up there on the least respected list. Of course doctors and nurses and school teachers are up there on the most respected list. Now I have met some VERY dishonest, untrustworthy doctors, nurses, and teachers in my time, but I dont pre-judge all of their peers because of that.

the problem is generalization. we get scooped into preconcieved stereotypes, and dont even get a chance to get judged on our OWN merits.

rant over, the soap box is available.

UMP, I only used those careers as an example. They rolled right off my fingers. I hear what you are saying. However, I don't see Congress conducting an investigation on the local Chevy dealer for not giving a factory rebate.

Maristar210
11-11-2006, 09:04 AM
UMP, I only used those careers as an example. They rolled right off my fingers. I hear what you are saying. However, I don't see Congress conducting an investigation on the local Chevy dealer for not giving a factory rebate.


He does have a point now doesn't he UMP?

Good one BriOED.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-11-2006, 09:08 AM
UMP, I only used those careers as an example. They rolled right off my fingers. I hear what you are saying. However, I don't see Congress conducting an investigation on the local Chevy dealer for not giving a factory rebate.
I know Bri, I wasnt comparing them, I was just on my own rant. I kinda went off on a tangeant there. I hear you loud and clear on that stuff. I was just spouting off. Maybe it wasnt the best place for my rant...

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 09:15 AM
This was in the Tampa Tribune today via the AP. It sheds a little more light, and facts, on the incident.

LOS ANGELES - Video footage posted on YouTube.com showing a police officer repeatedly striking a suspect in the face during an arrest three months ago has triggered an FBI investigation.

The video shows two officers holding down William Cardenas, 24, on a Hollywood street as one punches him several times in the face before they are able to handcuff him. The struggling suspect yells repeatedly, "I can't breathe!"

The footage, shot by an area resident, came to the FBI's attention Thursday, prompting investigators to open a civil rights inquiry into the Aug. 11 incident, agency spokeswoman Laura Eimiller said.

A Superior Court commissioner who viewed the video nearly two months ago and heard the officers' testimony has found that their conduct was "more than reasonable" under the circumstances because Cardenas was resisting, the Los Angeles Times reported Friday.

The police department has begun its own criminal and administrative investigations into the officers' use of force, police spokesman Paul Vernon said.

The officers were identified as Alexander Schlegel and Patrick Farrell. Both have been reassigned to administrative work.

"There's no denying that the video is disturbing," Chief William Bratton said at a news conference. "But as to whether the actions of the officers were appropriate in light of what they were experiencing and the totality of the circumstances is what the investigation will determine."

Vernon said Cardenas is a known gang member who had been wanted on a felony warrant for receiving stolen property.

In an arrest report obtained by The Associated Press, the officers said they tried to arrest Cardenas as he and two others were drinking beer on a sidewalk.

Cardenas ran, and the officers caught him, tripped him and swarmed over him to apply handcuffs, the report states.

The officers described repeated blows to the suspect's face in the report as well as his efforts to resist and their concern that he might grab one of their guns during the brawl.

The language used by the Supreme Court in the Tennessee vs Garner case was objectionably reasonable. In this case, the guy was a known gang members. Gangs are known to carry weapons and put hits out on cops. He was resisting arrest and fleeing. I am going to assume the officers will state they punched him in the face repeadetly to make him abide by their orders and to enable them to get the cuffs on him. Their is not a law that says what kind of force you can use. As long as the officers can articulate why they took the course of action they did, they will be cleared. Again, I believe they will both be cleared based on what I have seen and know of the law.

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 09:16 AM
I know Bri, I wasnt comparing them, I was just on my own rant. I kinda went off on a tangeant there. I hear you loud and clear on that stuff. I was just spouting off. Maybe it wasnt the best place for my rant...
UMP, you are free to rant anytime you want and wherever you want. I was simply making a counter-point my friend.

Maristar210
11-11-2006, 09:31 AM
/////Pat UMP's head softly


We love you UMP

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 09:33 AM
We love you UMP
Ditto...BTW, does UMP have a first name?

sanjuan23
11-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Superhero's never reveal their true Identity.

Maristar210
11-11-2006, 10:01 AM
Ditto...BTW, does UMP have a first name?


I honestly don't know his given name. I have a few names I call him though, don't I UMP?

Instigator
PIA
Smart A$$

and on


and on

JimN
11-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Is this going to turn into Saturday Night Live's version of 'Point/Counterpoint'?

"Jane, you ingorant slut!"

Maristar210
11-11-2006, 10:10 AM
Is this going to turn into Saturday Night Live's version of 'Point/Counterpoint'?

"Jane, you ingorant slut!"


Jim I laughed out loud - thanks for that .........funny stuff!!!

BriEOD
11-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Cute Jim.:D

bigmac
11-11-2006, 10:19 AM
I see a lot of criticism of the medical profession too. Some of it's deserved, some of it's based on arrogance and poor communication by doctors, some of it's based on ignorance, some of it's based on paranoid conspiracy theory. The higher profile the occupation, the bigger the lightning rod it is.

I know a lot of cops. I'm always inclined to give them the benefit of a doubt while the facts are gathered. As in the perception of my profession though, there are always a lot of people whose minds are made up and don't want to be confused by facts.

Farmer Ted
11-11-2006, 10:28 AM
the guy on the ground just won the lottery:rolleyes:


strange how the video doesn't show what led up to the dude being put down, I guess it's not important

I doubt he'll get a big pay day

the airman from Barksdale that got shot by the deputy after the Corvette chase will probably get some bank though

Farmer Ted
11-11-2006, 10:29 AM
Is this going to turn into Saturday Night Live's version of 'Point/Counterpoint'?

"Jane, you ingorant slut!"



Was it Eddie Murphy and Joe Piscapo that did "Ex Police"

Kick in the door

shoot

yell, "Freeze Ex-Police"

classic

Archimedes
11-11-2006, 10:58 AM
I know a lot of cops. I'm always inclined to give them the benefit of a doubt while the facts are gathered. As in the perception of my profession though, there are always a lot of people whose minds are made up and don't want to be confused by facts.

My granddad was a motorcycle cop in Harlem in the 30's and 40's and stayed connected to the NYPD for his entire life. He had some great stories to tell and gave me a real unvarnished look at what it was like being a cop then. As with any profession, he worked with some really good cops and some really bad cops. But what he quickly learned was that just about everything they did could be second guessed by someone and made to look bad, regardless of the facts. He accepted that and lived with it because he actually felt what he was doing was beneficial to society by being a civil servant.

milkmania
11-11-2006, 11:12 AM
Thanks guys,

I really enjoyed catching up on this thread this morning.

*reflecting* I really think the thread brings out the intergrity of it's members in a good way.

I did throw out the flippant comment of him winning the lottery as just a means of projecting myself as a smart~***. Although it sparked some good responses, I now remember there are always two sides to a story.

good stuff, keep it coming:popcorn:

JimN
11-11-2006, 11:20 AM
"just a means of projecting myself as a smart~***. "

Congratulations, it worked!:friday:

TMCNo1
11-11-2006, 11:25 AM
Not a threadjack, but,
Everytime and anywhere, I am in the presents of a Law Enforcement Officer, I go out of my way to tell them how much I appreciate they job they do for us, because they can never be told that enough IMO, just like the Military!

Jesus_Freak
11-12-2006, 03:18 AM
I agree.... and public school teachers as well!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-12-2006, 09:46 AM
I dont know..... I like all those names you fellas gave me. "P.I.T.A" "smart azz" "instigator" and "Jane, you ignorant slut" I enjoy all those names. I would be willing to bet most of the members here would choose "PITA" or "smart azz". :cool:

JimN
11-12-2006, 09:49 AM
Would you prefer "UMP, you ignorant slut"?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-12-2006, 09:50 AM
Would you prefer "UMP, you ignorant slut"?
Ooo! thats pretty good Jim! I kinda like that! :)