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View Full Version : Transmisson Issue........Still!


BrianM
12-19-2004, 03:50 PM
So a quick recap. In August I took my boat in to have the transmissions seals and damper plate replaced. The boat was rattling in neutral and was leaking fluid from the seal between the reverse band. My mechanic reccomended that I rebuild the transmission while he had the thing apart because it would only cost be the difference in parts. Made sense so I pulled the trigger. Three attempts latter the transmission (fully rebuilt was still leaking) much to the dismay of my mechanic. He was stumped and frusterated so he replaced the unit with a brand new one at no charge to me. Now I have no leak and the boat has run great for the last 20 hours with one exception......

The boat creeps a bit in neutral. The mechanic who has a good reputation in town said that sometimes brand new units or rebuilds are a little 'tight' at first and will creep a bit. He also explained that my strut bushings are worn a bit and are not appling the usual amount of 'friction' against the shaft stopping the prop from spinning a bit (prop spins maybe 100 rpm in neutral on the trailer) if you put some pressure with a ragged hand on the shaft coupling you can nearly eliminate the free spin where the prop just barely turns. My mechanic told me if I was still having problems with the creep to bring it back to him this off season and he would check it out and also replace the strut bushings for free (because of the amount of downtime I had this summer with the leak issue).

Hearing all of the above does this seem to make sense? Would a fresh set of strut bushing solve the creep or do I have other issues? The trans and damper plate are brad new. If the strut bushings are not it what is left? JimN or anybody else help....

JimN
12-19-2004, 05:20 PM
Is this creeping on the trailer or in the water? I have seen some shafts turn a bit on trailers, but they didn't provide any thrust and didn't have any problems in normal use. If it was in the water, was it very calm water and are you sure there wasn't a fairly strong current under the boat?

BrianM
12-19-2004, 11:52 PM
Jim to clairify a bit. When I start the boat on the trailer the prop turns what I consider to be quite a bit, maybe 100 rpm. With the old trans the prop would move on the trailer but barely (what most would consider normal).

Now with the boat in the water it creeps. Enough so that when it is tied to the dock at the lake it pulls on the bungee. I ski in a private lake with no current. When the lake is calm (95% of the time) I can tell the boat is creeping after setting a skier down (it used to not do this). The annoying part is it pulling on the dock. Especially at a high idle when starting it at the begining of the day and letting it warm up.

Just taking a guess I would say that the prop is probably spinning about twice as much as what it was before which is enough to cause the creep.

Any insight?

jimmer2880
12-20-2004, 07:05 AM
First of all... sounds like you have a kick@*** mechanic who really stands behind his work. Don't let him get away.

It makes sense that it would be your strut bushings... but something still doesn't sound right. I know my prop still rotates a bit in neutral, but not enough to move the boat.

dchatagnon
10-25-2005, 03:22 PM
I'm rebuilding my velvet drive 1:1.
I want to change the screws that hold the pump cover and the torx screws which are holding the front element. Where I can find those? I don't see any screws for transmission on skidim.com
By the way, how do you remove the pump cover on the front side? I would like to change the seal for the pump element.
thanks.
Damien

ktn_cmu
10-25-2005, 03:28 PM
Brian,

Mine creeps in the water, not as much as you say, but if it was 100% calm, mine would noticably creep forward. I think it is normal, have the strut bearing replaced and see what happens. I think your mechanic knows what he is talking about.

Damien,

Sorry, I don't know the answer, but you really should try to post your question in a new thread.

stumbledog
03-17-2006, 11:42 AM
So a quick recap. In August I took my boat in to have the transmissions seals and damper plate replaced. The boat was rattling in neutral and was leaking fluid from the seal between the reverse band. My mechanic reccomended that I rebuild the transmission while he had the thing apart because it would only cost be the difference in parts. Made sense so I pulled the trigger. Three attempts latter the transmission (fully rebuilt was still leaking) much to the dismay of my mechanic. He was stumped and frusterated so he replaced the unit with a brand new one at no charge to me. Now I have no leak and the boat has run great for the last 20 hours with one exception......

The boat creeps a bit in neutral. The mechanic who has a good reputation in town said that sometimes brand new units or rebuilds are a little 'tight' at first and will creep a bit. He also explained that my strut bushings are worn a bit and are not appling the usual amount of 'friction' against the shaft stopping the prop from spinning a bit (prop spins maybe 100 rpm in neutral on the trailer) if you put some pressure with a ragged hand on the shaft coupling you can nearly eliminate the free spin where the prop just barely turns. My mechanic told me if I was still having problems with the creep to bring it back to him this off season and he would check it out and also replace the strut bushings for free (because of the amount of downtime I had this summer with the leak issue).

Hearing all of the above does this seem to make sense? Would a fresh set of strut bushing solve the creep or do I have other issues? The trans and damper plate are brad new. If the strut bushings are not it what is left? JimN or anybody else help....

I have this same "creep", and I can feel the boat pulling on me as I am getting set to be pulled out of the water. I was told that I had warped clutch plates and it needed a rebuild. I did not get around to it last year since we just bought the boat at the end of the season, and it was not stopping us form using the boat. This issue of the strut bearing has me wondering to myself..........

Could my problem just be these bearings?

east tx skier
03-17-2006, 12:00 PM
I'm paraphrasing a year or so after the fact, but for what it's worth, my inboard mechanic told me that the clutch plates on older boats get a tad warped over time, the result of which is the prop turning a bit in neutral. He told me not to worry about it.

BrianM
03-17-2006, 12:03 PM
I have this same "creep", and I can feel the boat pulling on me as I am getting set to be pulled out of the water. I was told that I had warped clutch plates and it needed a rebuild. I did not get around to it last year since we just bought the boat at the end of the season, and it was not stopping us form using the boat. This issue of the strut bearing has me wondering to myself..........

Could my problem just be these bearings?

Probably not. I did end up replacing the strut bushings on the boat and it did not make a noticable difference. In my case after the new transmission had about 30 hours on it the creep went away. The mechanic was right the new transmission was just a bit 'tight' at first. Most of the time a substantial creep is caused by warped clutch plates as you were told.

G-man
03-17-2006, 12:16 PM
Brian

Thanks for your follow up on this so some of us could learn from your experiance. I think you owe your mechanic his beverage of choice, you have a great guy.

stumbledog
03-17-2006, 12:25 PM
Probably not. I did end up replacing the strut bushings on the boat and it did not make a noticable difference. In my case after the new transmission had about 30 hours on it the creep went away. The mechanic was right the new transmission was just a bit 'tight' at first. Most of the time a substantial creep is caused by warped clutch plates as you were told.

That is what I thought. This is a Borg Warner Velvet Drive 1.52:1 Powerslot. How difficult is it too rebuild? I believe I got a quote for somewhere around $600. I would consider doing it myself it is staightforward, and the savings was worth it.

Has anyone done this rebuild, and how much would the parts be?

east tx skier
03-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Probably not. I did end up replacing the strut bushings on the boat and it did not make a noticable difference. In my case after the new transmission had about 30 hours on it the creep went away. The mechanic was right the new transmission was just a bit 'tight' at first. Most of the time a substantial creep is caused by warped clutch plates as you were told.

Just talked to my mechanic a second ago. I misspoke a bit on "warped" clutch plates. He said they get a "glaze" on them that causes the creep. He said he's seen boats with as few as 150 hours developing this and that it's nothing to worry about.

Brian, the rattle that you heard. Did it go away after the boat had warmed up. Mine will rattle for a second when I first start it but will go away after a minute or so of operation and will not return unless the boat sits up for a while. Other than being annoying to me, it runs perfect.

BrianM
03-17-2006, 12:47 PM
Brian, the rattle that you heard. Did it go away after the boat had warmed up. Mine will rattle for a second when I first start it but will go away after a minute or so of operation and will not return unless the boat sits up for a while. Other than being annoying to me, it runs perfect.
The rattle that I had was broken springs in the damper plate. I did the tranny rebuild because the seals were leaking. When the mechanic couldn't get it to stop leaking he ended up replacing with a new unit.

east tx skier
03-17-2006, 01:46 PM
My mechanic spitballed that the springs were the culprit with mine. Since I'm not having any leaks that I know of, how involved would it be to replace the springs?

martini
03-17-2006, 01:56 PM
You don't replace damper springs as they are integrated into the damper themselves. You buy the entire part with springs. You have to remove the transmission and bellhousing to get to the damper plate.

BrianM
03-17-2006, 02:06 PM
My mechanic spitballed that the springs were the culprit with mine. Since I'm not having any leaks that I know of, how involved would it be to replace the springs?

Whole damper plate needs to be replaced. Probably cost about $250- $300 to have done. If it is just rattling a little bit in neutral I would live with it unless it starts to get really noisy. Mine rattled for about a year before it developed a leak (unrelated) so I decided to have the damper plate replaced when the took the transmisson out for a reseal.

east tx skier
03-17-2006, 03:21 PM
Thanks for the info. I think I'll wait until it starts hitting hard going into gear. It goes away so fast that I hardly notice it at this point.

east tx skier
04-19-2006, 06:34 PM
So funny story. I take my boat in to get a few spots buffed out (another long story). When I pick it up, my mechanic says, he, we saw something and went ahead and fixed it for you. Your prop nut had backed almost completely off.

Thank goodness for the cotter pin I think to myself. Boy that would've made a mess of my rudder if it hadn't been seized on there pretty good.

So I wonder if that was the source of the noise I heard (only after I first cranked it up and put it in reverse). I wonder if spinning leftward kept it pushed on there really well.

Lucked out. Zero dings to anything, prop, rudder, gel, anything. I'll see how it sounds next time I'm out.

Word to the wise, check those prop nuts. I'm going to be replacing my brass nylock here tooth-sweet.

BrianS
04-20-2006, 09:13 AM
The same thing happened to me at the end of last year, my prop nut had backed all the way off to the cotter pin!! I remember hearing a clunk going from reverse to forward and it was the prop sliding back and forth on the shaft.

Put a new key, prop nut and cotter pin on this spring. Just another thing to keep an eye on.

east tx skier
04-20-2006, 11:23 AM
Note to self. Make sure the key is still on there (probably is).

#47of100TeamMC
04-20-2006, 11:27 AM
How bad of an idea is it to stick a 2x4 between the prop and the hull and use that to keep the shaft from turning as you loosen/tighten the prop nut? How much is a prop puller?

east tx skier
04-20-2006, 11:37 AM
The first thing I do is pull the kill switch. No matter how slight the chance, I don't want to risk a torque start. As for keeping the shaft from turning. A gloved hand on one blade of the prop has always been sufficient for me.

A prop puller will run you just shy of $70 or so (get the four blade puller if you do the traditional style as it works on 3 and 4 blades). Or, you can get acme's harmonic puller for about $30 or so. That one, you whack with a hammer and it sends tiny vibrations down the shaft that gets the prop off.

I'm lucky. I got my puller free when I did the prop comparison last summer. Many thanks to Eric Johnson. Without that puller, no comparison could've been possible. :)

JimN
04-20-2006, 11:41 AM
You can do that but don't make the prop push on it at the blade tips. Use a longer one and make it contact the blade in the middle, where it's stronger. Put a towel or rag on the 2x so it doesn't damage the gelcoat. Don't go nuts with the torque or the prop won't want to come off. Once it's snug, the taper and key keep it in place. Replace the nut if the prop and/or nut is removed frequently. Nylock nuts are almost useless when they have been removed more than a few times.

88 PS190
04-20-2006, 11:55 AM
Damper plate is really easy to do yourself, some dealers charge you the equivalent of pulling the whole engine in labor charges.

If you detach your trans mounts, and the coupler, and the hosing then undo the pinch bolts on the front engine mount and you can swivel the engine up enough to get the trans off easily. then its like installing a new clutch plate.