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View Full Version : Plane hits NY skyscraper


88 PS190
10-11-2006, 05:07 PM
http://www.newsday.com/am-plane1012,0,225622.story?coll=ny-hsports-headlines

check that out.

east tx skier
10-11-2006, 05:10 PM
That's terrible.

bigmac
10-11-2006, 05:15 PM
Looks like the pilot was Yankee pitcher Cory Lidle. He has apparently called in shortly before the crash with a fuel problem.

M-Funf
10-11-2006, 05:22 PM
Wow...pretty horrible...

I watched the live broadcast. The weather was pretty bad...

shepherd
10-12-2006, 07:21 AM
Tragic. How do you fly into a building that size? Maybe they were distracted by/trying to avoid the bigger skyscraper? They apparently were flying under visual flight rules, so visibility shouldn't have been a problem.

I can imagine the panic in New York when word spread that another plane flew into a building... :rolleyes:


Typical, ignorant, kneejerk reaction (there's always one):
Rep. Peter King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said it was inconceivable that a small plane could fly over one of the nation's most densely populated areas with virtually no restrictions whatsoever.
"Today, it's terrible that several people were killed," King said. "But this is also a signal to terrorists as to how they could attack Manhattan. There is no restricted air space along the East River and the Hudson River. Just think of the high-profile targets you have off both of those rivers, from the United Nations to the Freedom Tower being constructed off the Hudson River."

Workin' 4 Toys
10-12-2006, 08:24 AM
When they were reporting it here, they couldn't say "It's believed to be an accident" and "not terror related" and "it's under investigation" often enough.

Now, If I recall, they had said similar things on Sept 11

And I believe they also mentioned there were several fighter jets sent to Boston and NY....

#47of100TeamMC
10-12-2006, 08:44 AM
Just a bad situation all around. I feel for Cory's family. You'd think after 9/11 they would restrict the whole manhattan area. But I'm sure it's more complicated than that. Sounds like they flew a circle around the statue of liberty before they proceeded to loose control and fly into the apartment building. The crazy thing, is that the 2 bodies were found on the street below, and the Engine of the Cirrus SR20 was in the living room of the apartment building on the 20th floor. Nothing good can come from this, bad for the families/ for the yankees, for the community, Bad for the Cirrus company in Duluth MN. Just a Bad/Sad situation.

Ric
10-12-2006, 09:06 AM
call me a cynic, but it's awfully coincidental that this happen in ny on 10/11
mr lidle may have been coerced into flying and/or reporting mechanical problems in order to not be engaged prior to hitting a damn 50 story building....

Workin' 4 Toys
10-12-2006, 09:11 AM
call me a cynic, but it's awfully coincidental that this happen in ny on 10/11
mr lidle may have been coerced into flying and/or reporting mechanical problems in order to not be engaged prior to hitting a damn 50 story building....
D4MN......Now you had to go there didn't you.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 09:21 AM
You know, that thought didnt even enter my mind, Ric does have a valid point. Interesting, and disturbing.

Maristar210
10-12-2006, 09:36 AM
You Guys Are Reading Too Much Into This

Ric
10-12-2006, 09:51 AM
You Guys Are Reading Too Much Into This I cannot help but think that way these days

MYMC
10-12-2006, 10:05 AM
call me a cynic, but it's awfully coincidental that this happen in ny on 10/11
mr lidle may have been coerced into flying and/or reporting mechanical problems in order to not be engaged prior to hitting a damn 50 story building....
I think you're onto something...I just heard that all the Jewish people that lived there had been told not to be home during the early afternoon hours. And, that Donald Rumsfeld had ordered all fighter planes in the area grounded until further notice...thank goodness there was no grassy knoll nearby, although I did hear Elvis was spotted just blocks away.

Jeez...:confused:

Ric
10-12-2006, 10:13 AM
I think you're onto something...I just heard that all the Jewish people that lived there had been told not to be home during the early afternoon hours. And, that Donald Rumsfeld had ordered all fighter planes in the area grounded until further notice...thank goodness there was no grassy knoll nearby, although I did hear Elvis was spotted just blocks away.

Jeez...:confused: sooo you are calling me a cynic

LakePirate
10-12-2006, 10:14 AM
According to an ABC reporter (like we can trust them) Mr. Lidge was flying a plane above his level a bit. Sounds like he ran out of talent.

Ric
10-12-2006, 10:15 AM
According to an ABC reporter (like we can trust them) Mr. Lidge was flying a plane above his level a bit. Sounds like he ran out of talent. Lidge is a pilot ?

LakePirate
10-12-2006, 10:17 AM
Lidge is a pilot ?


Typo Lidle.

You know us National League guys.

Ric
10-12-2006, 10:23 AM
Typo Lidle.

You know us National League guys. ya just ribbin ya pirate. None of you other animals chime in with an lidge comments now:rolleyes:

seriously though this is a helluva sad situation for the families and of course droves of people directly affected by this crash

MYMC
10-12-2006, 10:27 AM
According to an ABC reporter (like we can trust them) Mr. Lidge was flying a plane above his level a bit. Sounds like he ran out of talent.
The Cirus is a hot rod; however, they have an impecable record. Glass panel, safety chute etc...although if the engine fails (or you run out of fuel) at 1500' you dont have much time to get to best glide and figure out where you will set her down. Still odd they didn't pull the chute...it is rocket powered and can be used at surprisingly low altitudes.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 10:28 AM
sooo you are calling me a cynic
Ahhh, yep...I guess so.

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 10:41 AM
From what I've read, that route down the east river is a common tourist flight route. I think the floor is 800 feet. But it's not an easy route. Lots of hard banks and serious air traffic in that area. Where he crashed is apparently very close to where most people break off the route to avoid getting into LaGuardia's airspace.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 10:55 AM
From what I've read, that route down the east river is a common tourist flight route. I think the floor is 800 feet. But it's not an easy route. Lots of hard banks and serious air traffic in that area. Where he crashed is apparently very close to where most people break off the route to avoid getting into LaGuardia's airspace.
You are correct sir.

Ric
10-12-2006, 10:58 AM
From what I've read, that route down the east river is a common tourist flight route. I think the floor is 800 feet. But it's not an easy route. Lots of hard banks and serious air traffic in that area. Where he crashed is apparently very close to where most people break off the route to avoid getting into LaGuardia's airspace. That makes sense... sounds like no place for a trainee

Ric
10-12-2006, 10:58 AM
Ahhh, yep...I guess so. That's ok .... Schlub

bigmac
10-12-2006, 11:21 AM
The Cirus is a hot rod; however, they have an impecable record. Glass panel, safety chute etc...although if the engine fails (or you run out of fuel) at 1500' you dont have much time to get to best glide and figure out where you will set her down. Still odd they didn't pull the chute...it is rocket powered and can be used at surprisingly low altitudes.

Actually, their safety record is pretty crappy. There have been a total of 42 deaths in 21 accidents since 1999 when their test pilot was killed in a Cirrus SR20 prototype, that's like more than 3 times the national average for private general aviation aircraft. This year alone, their have been 5 fatal accidents accounting for 9 deaths, not including Cory Lidle.

The Cirrus factory is only about 90 miles from here, in Duluth. I've toured it and heard the sales pitch, although I've never flown either of their planes. They really look like top notch aircraft, though, very impressive in design. The parachute is made by Ballistic Recovery, also located here in Minnesota. I actually got to know Peter Popov, the president, a little using one of his earlier chutes on a T-Bird ultralight I used to fly. Cool stuff.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 11:25 AM
Odd part is that CNN said there was an instructor in the plane, if the pilot ran out of talent as Lakey suggested, the instructor should have been able to avoid something like that. My dad is a pilot, and he found it a bit strange that a novice with low hours was flying a "hot rod" type performance plane in an area like that. I know my dad is old school and learned in a tail dragger Cessna 120, but he thought it was strange to be flying a plane like that in an area like that with little expereicne. but maybe these days, thats the normal thing. Something awful major must have happend to go down that fast. elevators or ailerons failed or malfuncitoned somehow?? The news I have seen said that no distress call was confirmed. :confused: Whatever the case, its very sad and tragic. :(

phecksel
10-12-2006, 11:58 AM
This whole thing concerns me. From what I've read and heard this is supposed to be a relatively easy plane to fly. running out of fuel is a bad idea, but would never consider turning into a heavily populated area with dead engine. One witness {with the usual caveats for eye witness reports} claimed the plane made radical pitch and roll movements before impacting the building. Think we're going to have to wait for the official NTSB report a year from now.

bigmac
10-12-2006, 12:00 PM
Odd part is that CNN said there was an instructor in the plane, if the pilot ran out of talent as Lakey suggested, the instructor should have been able to avoid something like that. My dad is a pilot, and he found it a bit strange that a novice with low hours was flying a "hot rod" type performance plane in an area like that. I know my dad is old school and learned in a tail dragger Cessna 120, but he thought it was strange to be flying a plane like that in an area like that with little expereicne. but maybe these days, thats the normal thing. Something awful major must have happend to go down that fast. elevators or ailerons failed or malfuncitoned somehow?? The news I have seen said that no distress call was confirmed. :confused: Whatever the case, its very sad and tragic. :(

IIRC, Cory Lidle had something like 90 hours. His Cirrus SR20 falls into the category of "complex" or "high performance" aircraft due to the horsepower and the AV-ED cockpit. Most insurance companies require a minimum of 200 hours total time before they'll insure that type of plane for an owner, so my guess is that he was doing proficiency flying with an instructor to build up total hours and time-in-type to work toward satisfying his insurance company that he's safe to fly that particular plane.

Maristar210
10-12-2006, 12:05 PM
Odd part is that CNN said there was an instructor in the plane, if the pilot ran out of talent as Lakey suggested, the instructor should have been able to avoid something like that. My dad is a pilot, and he found it a bit strange that a novice with low hours was flying a "hot rod" type performance plane in an area like that. I know my dad is old school and learned in a tail dragger Cessna 120, but he thought it was strange to be flying a plane like that in an area like that with little expereicne. but maybe these days, thats the normal thing. Something awful major must have happend to go down that fast. elevators or ailerons failed or malfuncitoned somehow?? The news I have seen said that no distress call was confirmed. :confused: Whatever the case, its very sad and tragic. :(


Is it just me or did UMP actually just make an informative and meaningful post?

Steve

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 12:09 PM
Is it just me or did UMP actually just make an informative and meaningful post?

Steve:uglyhamme :uglyhamme You rule Staristar!:D

Workin' 4 Toys
10-12-2006, 12:45 PM
Is it just me or did UMP actually just make an informative and meaningful post?

Steve
I put him on my "block" list so I can make it through the threads a WHOLE lot faster. And MUCH more informative. So I don't know what he wrote, but I'd bet it's just you....:rolleyes:


I cannot help but think that way these days
And who says Ric is a chic......:rolleyes:

Ric
10-12-2006, 12:54 PM
IIRC, Cory Lidle had something like 90 hours. His Cirrus SR20 falls into the category of "complex" or "high performance" aircraft due to the horsepower and the AV-ED cockpit. Most insurance companies require a minimum of 200 hours total time before they'll insure that type of plane for an owner, so my guess is that he was doing proficiency flying with an instructor to build up total hours and time-in-type to work toward satisfying his insurance company that he's safe to fly that particular plane. that smells... proficiency flying up the east river... considering recent events and all... just sayin...

MYMC
10-12-2006, 01:06 PM
Actually, their safety record is pretty crappy. There have been a total of 42 deaths in 21 accidents since 1999 when their test pilot was killed in a Cirrus SR20 prototype, that's like more than 3 times the national average for private general aviation aircraft. This year alone, their have been 5 fatal accidents accounting for 9 deaths, not including Cory Lidle.

The Cirrus factory is only about 90 miles from here, in Duluth. I've toured it and heard the sales pitch, although I've never flown either of their planes. They really look like top notch aircraft, though, very impressive in design. The parachute is made by Ballistic Recovery, also located here in Minnesota. I actually got to know Peter Popov, the president, a little using one of his earlier chutes on a T-Bird ultralight I used to fly. Cool stuff.
If you read the reports the majority are pilot error during landing or take off. Several are engine failure and when combined with enough altitude (read time) are non fatal thanks to the chute. In 2006 the issues have been 2 engine failures, weather/IFR loss of control, weather missed approach, icing, seat slide not locked at take off with expected loss of rudder control (feet not on pedals) and one training flight incident...

I have been told by several CFIs that the SR20 is too much plane for a wet ink pilot. Further most state that the chute gives rise to poor decision making as people feel they can walk away since it is on board (false sense of security).

Maristar210
10-12-2006, 01:10 PM
I put him on my "block" list so I can make it through the threads a WHOLE lot faster. And MUCH more informative. So I don't know what he wrote, but I'd bet it's just you....:rolleyes:



And who says Ric is a chic......:rolleyes:

Ouch WFT. You don't want to hurt his feelings...:rolleyes:

Ric
10-12-2006, 01:16 PM
Ouch WFT. You don't want to hurt his feelings...:rolleyes: Thanks Mary, that was very sensitive of you

shepherd
10-12-2006, 01:16 PM
I wouldn't read too much into this. In my semi-educated opinion (being a private pilot myself), my best bet would be they had to make a tight turn to avoid busting LaGuardia airspace, they were both distracted enjoying the view or looking at something on the ground (or by a problem with the plane), and didn't see the building until it was too late. Flying up one of those VFR corridors around Manhattan is a very scenic flight with many things on the ground that can distract you.

Running out of fuel will not cause a plane to crash into a building - the pilot can still fly the plane and avoid buildings as it glides to the ground.

pilot02
10-12-2006, 01:50 PM
IIRC, Cory Lidle had something like 90 hours. His Cirrus SR20 falls into the category of "complex" or "high performance" aircraft due to the horsepower and the AV-ED cockpit. Most insurance companies require a minimum of 200 hours total time before they'll insure that type of plane for an owner, so my guess is that he was doing proficiency flying with an instructor to build up total hours and time-in-type to work toward satisfying his insurance company that he's safe to fly that particular plane.

That is incorrect.
The SR20 wouldn't fall into "Complex" since it doesn't have retractable gear (has to have retractable gear, flaps, and constant speed propeller) and wouldn't fall into the "High performance" category either since it only has 200hp (needs to be "more than") unless it had the IO 550 engine option. Glass cockpit has nothing to do with either of these "additional training requirements."

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 01:50 PM
That is incorrect.
The SR20 wouldn't fall into "Complex" since it doesn't have retractable gear (has to have retractable gear, flaps, and constant speed propeller) and wouldn't fall into the "High performance" category either since it only has 200hp (needs to be "more than") unless it had the IO 550 engine option. Glass cockpit has nothing to do with either of these "additional training requirements."

what he said ^^^^^^^^^

Ric
10-12-2006, 01:52 PM
newby pilot flying up the east river concerns me.

any newbie pilots allowed to fly near capital hill or a big petrochem complex?

pilot02
10-12-2006, 02:00 PM
As long as he'd earned his private, he would not be restricted by route as long as no NOTAM (Notice to Airmans) containing TFR's (Temporary Flight Restrictions) were in place. He would of course have to comply with those or any other airspace requirements (flight minimums, Mode-C transponder codes, radio contact/communication) for the area. I'm not familiar with the area and haven't looked at that sectional.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 02:11 PM
That is incorrect.
The SR20 wouldn't fall into "Complex" since it doesn't have retractable gear (has to have retractable gear, flaps, and constant speed propeller) and wouldn't fall into the "High performance" category either since it only has 200hp (needs to be "more than") unless it had the IO 550 engine option. Glass cockpit has nothing to do with either of these "additional training requirements."
The man knows his stuff...the test questions are burned into my memory. I flew an Arrow the other day met all the reqs except one...the "more than" rule...it was only 200. What a tank to land land!

bigmac
10-12-2006, 02:14 PM
That is incorrect.
The SR20 wouldn't fall into "Complex" since it doesn't have retractable gear (has to have retractable gear, flaps, and constant speed propeller) and wouldn't fall into the "High performance" category either since it only has 200hp (needs to be "more than") unless it had the IO 550 engine option. Glass cockpit has nothing to do with either of these "additional training requirements."

I stand corrected. I note that the controllable propeller is incorporated into the throttle. I didn't know that.:o

The glass cockpit, while not figuring into the FAA type classification, is a sticky subject with FBOs that rent such planes, and I'm not aware of a single one that doesn't require a ground course on the plane and 8-10 hours of dual, and many require 200 hours TT. Likewise, and to my point, insurance companies are unlikely IMHO to insure a Cirrus SR20 for a private pilot with 90 hours, just as FBOs put that plane in a different category than a Cessna 172.

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 02:15 PM
seat slide not locked at take off with expected loss of rudder control (feet not on pedals)

I've done that. It sucks. Fortunately, the seat slid at rotation, so we were airborne albeit only slightly.

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 02:20 PM
newby pilot flying up the east river concerns me.

any newbie pilots allowed to fly near capital hill or a big petrochem complex?

90 hours isn't exactly a newbie pilot. But it isn't exactly what someone would called seasoned or experienced either. It depends on the level of dedication and work you put into being really good. One of the worst things you can be is a so-so pilot. This is just a general statement. It's not a comment on his level of proficiency.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 02:21 PM
Interesting pilot talk:popcorn: :popcorn:

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 02:23 PM
I flew an Arrow the other day met all the reqs except one...the "more than" rule...it was only 200. What a tank to land land!

Never cared much for that plane. Don't like the performance or lack thereof. I unfortunately blew about 10 hours ifor of my personal funds in one of those.

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 02:30 PM
Interesting pilot talk:popcorn: :popcorn:

I decided to quit just before I got my license, but did my short cross country flights. Lots of fun, but lots of works. Lots of $$$, too. My dad was the real pilot in our family. When he hung it up, he had over 10,000 hours (all private). He did his last 20 years in one of these.

http://www.globalair.com/classifieds/images/dove/69_Commander1121B_sn137_e.jpg

Sorry, Gene.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-12-2006, 02:56 PM
I flew a Cessna once....That was the end of that.............:(

Carbon Dreams
10-12-2006, 03:01 PM
Never cared much for that plane. Don't like the performance or lack thereof. I unfortunately blew about 10 hours ifor of my personal funds in one of those.

The reason for a chute is due to the lack of positive spin recovery. Not too fond of the 2 attachment points for the flight control surfaces either. Controls are not a true "joystick" design. Boy, the list goes on... I definately do not like a design that will make concessions for the bottom line!

Maybe tasteless, but...

We had an airshow joke for a while asking why the Cirrus aircraft were at the main airport. It seemed logical for them to congregate around the ultralight area as they are powered chutes.

Columbia Aircraft has a much better fixed gear 4-seat single. Waaaaayyy stronger

None-the-less, I hate to hear of any GA airplane going down. I have lost way too many close friends through the years doing stupid things.
In a sensationalized media frenzy, especially in NY, I hope it doesn't hurt all of aviation.

Keep the greasy side down, unless you are in your boat!

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 03:02 PM
I flew a Cessna once....That was the end of that.............:(

Just remember, any landing you can walk away from is considered a good one. :)

pilot02
10-12-2006, 03:02 PM
I stand corrected. I note that the controllable propeller is incorporated into the throttle. I didn't know that.:o

The glass cockpit, while not figuring into the FAA type classification, is a sticky subject with FBOs that rent such planes, and I'm not aware of a single one that doesn't require a ground course on the plane and 8-10 hours of dual, and many require 200 hours TT. Likewise, and to my point, insurance companies are unlikely IMHO to insure a Cirrus SR20 for a private pilot with 90 hours, just as FBOs put that plane in a different category than a Cessna 172.

Anything's insurable, just depends on how much your willing to pay.....:D

Workin' 4 Toys
10-12-2006, 03:07 PM
Just remember, any landing you can walk away from is considered a good one. :)
How does the saying go.......
"Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man........Landing is the first"

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 03:08 PM
How does the saying go.......
"Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man........Landing is the first"

I couldn't agree more.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 03:11 PM
Just remember, any landing you can walk away from is considered a good one. :)
Same thing I told my CFI...he didn't seem to find it as funny as I did.

Tom023
10-12-2006, 03:20 PM
If you want a good read on the Cirrus 20 here is an article.

http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/cirrus-sr20

Even though a 22 is available to me, I've never flown one and don't plan on getting typed in it, more now after reading the article. Maybe it's age getting to me but I'm beginning to like slow and stable with the window open on clear days. A Maule or Cub works just fine for me...shelved the RV8 plan.

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 03:23 PM
Theres always the saying

There's old pilots and there's bold pilots, but there aren't any old bold pilots.

:D

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 03:26 PM
If I had my druthers I'd own this little baby right here. Anyone got 600k they'd permanently loan me??

http://www.lancair.com/Main/propjet.html

Tom023
10-12-2006, 03:32 PM
If I had my druthers I'd own this little baby right here. Anyone got 600k they'd permanently loan me??

http://www.lancair.com/Main/propjet.html

It's says $129,500...they left out the next three to four years of your life building it.

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 03:35 PM
It's says $129,500...they left out the next three to four years of your life building it.

Thats for the motor upgrade only.......For a built Lancair IVP Propjet you'll spend 600k with good avionics in it.

Tom023
10-12-2006, 03:38 PM
I guess I should have read the page...too rich for me!

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 03:39 PM
I guess I should have read the page...too rich for me!


same here........:(

MYMC
10-12-2006, 03:46 PM
Let me look into my crystal ball...oh there it is...I see a Piper Seminole, no maybe a Beech Dutchess in the future...hard to tell from here but it sure looks like one of those two.;)

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 03:47 PM
Let me look into my crystal ball...oh there it is...I see a Piper Seminole, no maybe a Beech Dutchess in the future...hard to tell from here but it sure looks like one of those two.;)

Me likey the looks of the Duchess. Never flown or been in one though. Have you?

bcampbe7
10-12-2006, 03:48 PM
Whatever you do buy Jeff, we have a reginal airport here in town that you could fly into to get some ski sessions in. The lake is 20 minutes from the airport. :cool:

MYMC
10-12-2006, 03:52 PM
Me likey the looks of the Duchess. Never flown or been in one though. Have you?
No but I took a ride in a Duke last night and it is REAL nice. Too much plane (money and skill wise) for me now. I like the look of both, it will come down to best avionics/TBOH to make the decsion.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 03:53 PM
same here........:(
Bull, the way things are now with pricing and opportunities your losing money not owning one!

Get your glove and get in the game!

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 03:55 PM
Whatever you do buy Jeff, we have a reginal airport here in town that you could fly into to get some ski sessions in. The lake is 20 minutes from the airport. :cool:

Shoot, head this way, the place where I go to ski school has a grass strip and a hanger.

Fly N Ski Ranch.

east tx skier
10-12-2006, 03:57 PM
Me likey the looks of the Duchess. Never flown or been in one though. Have you?

My dad had a couple of Twin Beeches over the years. Good airplanes.

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 04:00 PM
Bull, the way things are now with pricing and opportunities your losing money not owning one!

Get your glove and get in the game!


Guess I need to get me a MC dealership to enjoy those type of toys.

Shoot Mike, my wife was pissed off when I brought home a $800 GPS the other night. Could you imagine if I set down the keys to a Lancair Propjet on the kithen table?????

MYMC
10-12-2006, 04:11 PM
Guess I need to get me a MC dealership to enjoy those type of toys.

Shoot Mike, my wife was pissed off when I brought home a $800 GPS the other night. Could you imagine if I set down the keys to a Lancair Propjet on the kithen table?????
I'm not a tax accountant, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once.

Try this: Own it in an LLC and lease it to a flight school to use in multi training. Have the flight school then (if able) license it for charter. You fly for free and not only does the plane not cost you, but it is earning money for you. Lastly, if history is any indicator it won't drop in value but you can depreciate it and when time to sell...well you know the rest.

(I'll let that dealer comment go for now)

Tryin-again
10-12-2006, 04:22 PM
Guess I need to get me a MC dealership to enjoy those type of toys.

Shoot Mike, my wife was pissed off when I brought home a $800 GPS the other night. Could you imagine if I set down the keys to a Lancair Propjet on the kithen table?????


Pissed - it might have been the slurr in your speech - Kithen??

Least that is what mine was allways giving me SH** about...:D

Ric
10-12-2006, 04:27 PM
90 hours isn't exactly a newbie pilot. But it isn't exactly what someone would called seasoned or experienced either. It depends on the level of dedication and work you put into being really good. One of the worst things you can be is a so-so pilot. This is just a general statement. It's not a comment on his level of proficiency. I reportedly flew a cessna when I was 2
I don't really have record of how many hours I have though:D

Ric
10-12-2006, 04:29 PM
As long as he'd earned his private, he would not be restricted by route as long as no NOTAM (Notice to Airmans) containing TFR's (Temporary Flight Restrictions) were in place. He would of course have to comply with those or any other airspace requirements (flight minimums, Mode-C transponder codes, radio contact/communication) for the area. I'm not familiar with the area and haven't looked at that sectional. I don't mean to say that I'm upset with what this guy did (anymore than anyone else is...) but I am upset that (AFTER FREAKIN 911) I would think that controls were in place to deter even the remote chance that something like this could happen..

pilot02
10-12-2006, 04:30 PM
Thats for the motor upgrade only.......For a built Lancair IVP Propjet you'll spend 600k with good avionics in it.

Actually, that is the correct price for the complete airframe kit. Not sure what the turbine would cost. Avionics, probably 35-40k. Paying someone to build it, paint it, get it certified because you don't have time..... $$$$$

bigmac
10-12-2006, 04:37 PM
Actually, that is the correct price for the complete airframe kit. Not sure what the turbine would cost. Avionics, probably 35-40k. Paying someone to build it, paint it, get it certified because you don't have time..... $$$$$When I got my pilot's license, the dealer had airplanes sitting on a showroom floor like new cars. I could have bought a new Cessna 150 for $14,200 with avionics. Of course, I was 16, and my flying lessons were $12.90/hour for the plane and $5/hour for the instructor.

pilot02
10-12-2006, 04:44 PM
When I got my pilot's license, the dealer had airplanes sitting on a showroom floor like new cars. I could have bought a new Cessna 150 for $14,200 with avionics. Of course, I was 16, and my flying lessons were $12.90/hour for the plane and $5/hour for the instructor.


Wow, that's a far cry from the 241k I saw the other day for a new 172. I'm assuming the listing was accurate since it was from a dealer that had several 06's but that price has literally doubled in the past 10 years.

I'm paying in the low $90 range per hour to rent a 25yr old 172. Needless to say haven't flown in a while... That's a days trip to the lake!

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 04:46 PM
Rented a 172xp locally a few months ago for $187.00 wet. That was an expensive two hours of fun........:rolleyes:

MYMC
10-12-2006, 04:50 PM
Rented a 172xp locally a few months ago for $187.00 wet. That was an expensive two hours of fun........:rolleyes:
same numbers for here...the Archer runs a little more ($10/hr) but it has twin 430's and is all but brand new.

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 05:02 PM
same numbers for here...the Archer runs a little more ($10/hr) but it has twin 430's and is all but brand new.


What certs do you have Mike? I'd really like to get my instruments rating, just the usual time and $$ issue. Funny thing is I could do it for just the cost of the rental. My best friend is CFI

bigmac
10-12-2006, 05:16 PM
Rented a 172xp locally a few months ago for $187.00 wet. That was an expensive two hours of fun........:rolleyes:I was a Major, Mission Pilot, in the Minnesota Wing of the Civil Air Patrol. I don't fly for them anymore, but our squadron (Crow Wing) had a 172XP. There were three pilots in our squadron. The Air Force picked up the tab for hundreds of hours for us for things like SAR, marijuana grow patrols along the Canadian border, river patrol for illegal dump sites, orientation flights for cadets, plus a lot of personal "proficiency" flying, most of which we only paid for gas. At that time, the fancy avionics (other than ELT direction finders) was LORAN. The CAP even picked the cost of BFR and even instument proficiency. I gave up the CAP about 5 years ago when the non-rated guys really got into the saluting and military protocol stuff. They were always kind of mad at me because I was commissioned as a Major because I was a doctor, and therefore medical officer.

The CAP uniform used to be identical to the standard Air Force uniform except for different collar cutout. I remember how pissed those guys were when the Air Force made them go to burgundy epaulets, at which time all the Air Force guys stopped saluting them at Wing meetings.

MYMC
10-12-2006, 05:18 PM
What certs do you have Mike? I'd really like to get my instruments rating, just the usual time and $$ issue. Funny thing is I could do it for just the cost of the rental. My best friend is CFI
Do it, I'm working on it now...I was going to do my multi next but I would have to redo it for the multi IFR. Doesn't matter much really 'cause you need the multi time no matter what if you ever want to be able to use it. One way or another I'll be buying more time with a CFI in the right seat. I like IFR stuff way better.

Carbon Dreams
10-12-2006, 05:40 PM
Actually, that is the correct price for the complete airframe kit. Not sure what the turbine would cost. Avionics, probably 35-40k. Paying someone to build it, paint it, get it certified because you don't have time..... $$$$$

After Spending 2 years of dedicated time with 3 others on the project, the IV-P project had a total cost of $550,000 for us. Most IV-P Propjet customers have north of $700,000 into them before they are happy. That is, of course, with a custom builder, the Chelton Flight Systems EFIS, Custom Leather and Custom Paint.

The Lancair Propjet is a nice bird, but the Epic LT is wonderful. 6 seats instead of 4. Climbs faster and carries 3,000-3,500 lbs of useful load.

The Epic is a conventionally controlled aircraft. That is it has a center yoke while the Lancair is a side stick control. My preference is the side stick as the Panel is much more flexible and easier to scan.

I will post some cockpit shots of the aircraft I fly.

puck_11
10-12-2006, 05:51 PM
Wow...looks like we've got quite a few pilots on board! This is my first post since I don't know much about Mastercraft's yet, but I am a CFI and now am a Student Naval Aviator, so I feel I can comment on this.

Anyways, those Cirrus are quite fun to fly, especially the SR-22, and they are little hot rods, regardless if they are complex are not. It's real easy for low time pilots to get into bad situations with those aircraft. I don't know who said it before on here, but they were right in that the majority of those accidents were caused by poor decision making, NOT aircraft design.

However as far as this accident goes, there was an instructor on board. It's tough to speculate on what could have happened, so I won't.

I think the bigger issue for General Aviation pilots is the congresswoman from NY that they had on MSNBC going off on how she was going to lead the way to making sure GA traffic would not be allowed to fly downtown NY and how it is a security and safety threat. C'mon lady, one accident and you're going to shut down all of GA in NY?!?!?

For those from the area, please comment on the situation

rodltg2
10-12-2006, 05:58 PM
expense is why i gave up flying. too much work and money for the amount of fun i got out if it. my 172 was a money pit to say the least. sold it and bought a houseboat. great descion, i have money in my pocket and i can enjoy it with a bunch of friends. if i ever become filthy rich , ill buy a plane agian. however i wont be the one flying it.it wont be a c172 either, more like a citation and ill be the one in the back having drinks!!

Carbon Dreams
10-12-2006, 06:00 PM
"poor decision making"

You hit it right on the head. Most accidents are headset fires! After spending the better part of my life in aviation, I can say without a doubt that I would have many more friends if good decisions were made. Do we all make poor choices, yes. We are all accountable for those choices and some have paid the ultimate price with life.

Ask yourself is it worth it to push the envelope?

TX.X-30 fan
10-12-2006, 06:56 PM
I think you're onto something...I just heard that all the Jewish people that lived there had been told not to be home during the early afternoon hours. And, that Donald Rumsfeld had ordered all fighter planes in the area grounded until further notice...thank goodness there was no grassy knoll nearby, although I did hear Elvis was spotted just blocks away.

Jeez...:confused:


I understand from anonymos sources Jimmy Hoffa had been spotted in the area only minutes before the crash.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 07:20 PM
Most accidents are headset fires! you mean the headset they wear starts on fire?? and they freak out and crash? did I assume correctly, :confused:

must be like when a bee gets in your helmet when driving a motorcycle.

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 07:28 PM
you mean the headset they wear starts on fire?? and they freak out and crash? did I assume correctly, :confused:

must be like when a bee gets in your helmet when driving a motorcycle.

UMP are you pulling a yooper joke or did you really interpret it like said above????

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 07:31 PM
UMP are you pulling a yooper joke or did you really interpret it like said above????
NO, I am not joking Jeff. I am serious. What did he mean??

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 08:56 PM
NO, I am not joking Jeff. I am serious. What did he mean??

read: poor decision making & misinterpretations.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 09:04 PM
read: poor decision making & misinterpretations.
OK, I see now. SOrry for my retardedness. :o

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 09:06 PM
OK, I see now. SOrry for my retardedness. :o


UMP I think all that cold weather, the pasties, and the crazy accents have gotten to you up there. :rolleyes: :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 09:10 PM
UMP I think all that cold weather, the pasties, and the crazy accents have gotten to you up there. :rolleyes: :D
Anything is possible Jr. :o

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 09:13 PM
Anything is possible Jr. :o


Whats the water temp on Erie??

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-12-2006, 09:23 PM
Whats the water temp on Erie??
I dont know, I aint near it, you are closer to Erie than me Mr. Geography.8p I live on Superior, remember?

6ballsisall
10-12-2006, 09:24 PM
I dont know, I aint near it, you are closer to Erie than me Mr. Geography.8p I live on Superior, remember?

Oh yeah........:D BLame the Makers Mark. :rolleyes:

Carbon Dreams
10-12-2006, 10:19 PM
Sorry for my poor humor. Some call it Brain F@rts others call it a case of the dumb @ss's. Rest assured most if not all airplane accidents could and should be prevented.

UMP RU by Iron River?

Farmer Ted
10-12-2006, 11:23 PM
Shoot, head this way, the place where I go to ski school has a grass strip and a hanger.

Fly N Ski Ranch.


Do they have a closet for their hanger?


.....jus sayin

TMCNo1
10-12-2006, 11:28 PM
Me and UMP got the 2 best jobs when we be flyin' high, he splits the wood and I pilot in tha corner of the hanger nearst to wood stove!!

erkoehler
10-12-2006, 11:34 PM
Sorry for my poor humor. Some call it Brain F@rts others call it a case of the dumb @ss's. Rest assured most if not all airplane accidents could and should be prevented.

UMP RU by Iron River?


UMP is probably 1.5 hours (my guess) from Iron River....ICBW.

bigmac
10-13-2006, 07:34 AM
One question that seems to be getting some importance is who was actually flying Cory Lidle's plane at the crash. Apparently, if it was Cory Lidle, his family loses a $1.5 million death benefit from the Yankees because of an aviation exclusion in his insurance contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that dual instruction meant that the CFI was the pilot-in-command.

Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine an airplane in trouble with a CFI in the right seat just sitting there with his hands in his lap, or an 88 hour private pilot trying to wrestle the controls in an emergency from his on-board flight instructor.

Opinions?

(sorry for the threadjack ;) )

Tom023
10-13-2006, 08:17 AM
I don't think the PIC question is that defined. FAR 91.3(a) states "The PIC of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft." (b) In an in-flight emergency requireing immediate action, the PIC may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

Seeing that Lidle was a certificated pilot, owned the aircraft and I assume was sitting left seat, it would be hard to argue he was not the PIC. Also, since only one of the two could log flight hours in this aircraft, I would assume Lidle would have wanted to be the PIC so he could record the hours.

What happened in the last few seconds? We'll never know, but I have to think in the end, Lidle is deemed to be responsible.

bigmac
10-13-2006, 08:39 AM
I don't think the PIC question is that defined. FAR 91.3(a) states "The PIC of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft." (b) In an in-flight emergency requireing immediate action, the PIC may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

Seeing that Lidle was a certificated pilot, owned the aircraft and I assume was sitting left seat, it would be hard to argue he was not the PIC. Also, since only one of the two could log flight hours in this aircraft, I would assume Lidle would have wanted to be the PIC so he could record the hours.

What happened in the last few seconds? We'll never know, but I have to think in the end, Lidle is deemed to be responsible.

My recollection is that in terms of qualifying for an advanced rating (my instrument ticket) I wasn't able to count dual instruction as pilot-in-command time.

Tryin-again
10-13-2006, 08:41 AM
My newspaper says that the flight instructor had not finished the training course that the company requires instructors to take...

I am not a pilot - and this could be Cirrus covering their A$$..

FWIW ---

bigmac
10-13-2006, 09:06 AM
My newspaper says that the flight instructor had not finished the training course that the company requires instructors to take...

I am not a pilot - and this could be Cirrus covering their A$$..

FWIW ---

It's true that Cirrus has a 1 week comprhensive course in Duluth for Cirrus pilots, and probably a different course for instructors as well. I'm not sure if it's mandatory for purchasers of new planes, but I did read that neither the instructor nor Cory Lidle had taken that course since his was a used plane (2002).

MYMC
10-13-2006, 09:21 AM
I don't think the PIC question is that defined. FAR 91.3(a) states "The PIC of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft." (b) In an in-flight emergency requireing immediate action, the PIC may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

Seeing that Lidle was a certificated pilot, owned the aircraft and I assume was sitting left seat, it would be hard to argue he was not the PIC. Also, since only one of the two could log flight hours in this aircraft, I would assume Lidle would have wanted to be the PIC so he could record the hours.

What happened in the last few seconds? We'll never know, but I have to think in the end, Lidle is deemed to be responsible.
The CFI is the guy because the PIC is the CFI. It is defined as the pilot with the greatest level of certification and training. Even if you are riding in the back you become "the" guy in the event of an emergency.

Tom023
10-13-2006, 10:12 AM
The CFI is the guy because the PIC is the CFI. It is defined as the pilot with the greatest level of certification and training. Even if you are riding in the back you become "the" guy in the event of an emergency.

Just got off the phone with a CFI...and technically MYMC your are correct, however, it can really be a grey and complex area. According to him (and I still think he could not be 100% clear on it), the senior rated person is considered the PIC if rated in the aircraft, so that is an open question given the information BigMac provided. Now, if both are certificated pilots and rated in the aircraft, both actually can log PIC time even if one is only VFR and the other IFR if they are flying in VFR conditions. One logs it as dual-given and one as dual-received. If flying IFR, then only the IFR logs PIC. Getting back to Bigmac's earlier comment, if it's a student pilot, then the student is never PIC unless flying solo. He went on about isssues such as "sole manipulator of controls", etc.... at that point I bailed out.

It will be interesting to see the official ruling.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-13-2006, 10:17 AM
Gosh with all these abbreviations, yoos guys are as bad as teenagers text messaging each other. :uglyhamme

PIC, IFR, CFI, VFR.....

Do U C what I mean?8p R U gtn my pnt??:cool:

sorry.....just had too.....:D

Tom023
10-13-2006, 10:21 AM
Gosh with all these abbreviations, yoos guys are as bad as teenagers text messaging each other.

PIC, IFR, CFI, VFR.....



sorry.....just had too.....:D

You forgot UMP and MYMC :uglyhamme

Upper Michigan Prostar190
10-13-2006, 10:29 AM
You forgot UMP and MYMC :uglyhamme
Ooo!!! good one Tom! :cool:

You R 2 CUL!!:)

Tom023
10-13-2006, 10:32 AM
ROTFLMAO IIRC the saying correctly.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-13-2006, 10:38 AM
Gosh with all these abbreviations, yoos guys are as bad as teenagers text messaging each other.

PIC, IFR, CFI, VFR.....

Do U C what I mean? R U gtn my pnt??

sorry.....just had too.....

Is this coming from.............. UMP................???:rolleyes:


I heard about the insurance issue this morning. That is going to be a HUGE mess for the families, and I feel for them.
And the lawyers............Oh the lawyers.....:mad:

east tx skier
10-13-2006, 10:41 AM
I heard about the insurance issue this morning. That is going to be a HUGE mess for the families, and I feel for them.
And the lawyers............Oh the lawyers.....:mad:

Everytime someone has a problem, I go to the mailbox and look for my check. Haven't found one yet.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-13-2006, 10:43 AM
Everytime someone has a problem, I go to the mailbox and look for my check. Haven't found one yet.
As you know it wasn't directed at YOU..... but I can only imagine, (In reality I can't even imagine) what this is going to turn into.....

Tom023
10-13-2006, 10:45 AM
OK, for those who care, everything you want to know about (or not) about being PIC, and logging PIC time...which is pointed out as being two separate things....

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/scott/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

Edit: Interestingly, the last paragraph states:

Then there are some unusual situations which occur. A private pilot flying with his friend (a CFI or ATP) aboard as a passenger. What is the status of the CFI or ATP who is obviously a more senior pilot with more experience than the private pilot? The regulations don’t address this situation, but the courts may find that the more senior pilot has some or all the responsibility for the operation or safety of the flight.

Tryin-again
10-13-2006, 11:22 AM
Everytime someone has a problem, I go to the mailbox and look for my check. Haven't found one yet.


To be fair - I know quite a few lawyers that either skipped, or didn't sign up for "Ambulance Chasing 101" :D

east tx skier
10-13-2006, 12:15 PM
As you know it wasn't directed at YOU..... but I can only imagine, (In reality I can't even imagine) what this is going to turn into.....

The one time I forget the smiley. Damned internet(s). I was just funnin'. And you're right.

east tx skier
10-13-2006, 12:16 PM
To be fair - I know quite a few lawyers that either skipped, or didn't sign up for "Ambulance Chasing 101" :D

To be extra fair, I know some who found it so nice, they took it twice. :o

Tryin-again
10-13-2006, 01:08 PM
To be extra fair, I know some who found it so nice, they took it twice. :o


. :uglyhamme :uglyhamme

pilot02
10-13-2006, 02:40 PM
One question that seems to be getting some importance is who was actually flying Cory Lidle's plane at the crash. Apparently, if it was Cory Lidle, his family loses a $1.5 million death benefit from the Yankees because of an aviation exclusion in his insurance contract. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that dual instruction meant that the CFI was the pilot-in-command.

Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine an airplane in trouble with a CFI in the right seat just sitting there with his hands in his lap, or an 88 hour private pilot trying to wrestle the controls in an emergency from his on-board flight instructor.

Opinions?

(sorry for the threadjack ;) )

I read that the family won't lose the death benefit because the Yankee's season was already over. If the accident had occurred during the season they would have lost it.

Cory did have an instructor on board, but if he was not receiving instruction at that particular time and was the "sole manipulator of the controls" he would be PIC.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-13-2006, 02:43 PM
And today, someone lands one on the expressway in Florida...

bigmac
10-13-2006, 02:49 PM
I read that the family won't lose the death benefit because the Yankee's season was already over. If the accident had occurred during the season they would have lost it.

Cory did have an instructor on board, but if he was not receiving instruction at that particular time and was the "sole manipulator of the controls" he would be PIC.


As I said, though, it's hard for me to imagine that a flight instructor would be sitting there in the right seat with his hands in his lap in those last few minutes after the mayday call, or that an 88 hour private pilot is going to insist on being the sole manipulator of the controls with his instructor along .

east tx skier
10-13-2006, 02:53 PM
And today, someone lands one on the expressway in Florida...

My dad had to make an emergency landing on a Kansas highway once. Sounds like this one might have been a bit hairier.

bigmac
10-13-2006, 05:08 PM
My dad had to make an emergency landing on a Kansas highway once. Sounds like this one might have been a bit hairier.

Kansas vs Manhattan for emergency landing spots? Yeah, my money'd be on Kansas.:)

bigmac
10-13-2006, 05:10 PM
My dad had to make an emergency landing on a Kansas highway once. Sounds like this one might have been a bit hairier.

I put a glider down in a Nebraska cornfield once.:o

flyingskibiker
10-13-2006, 05:24 PM
columbias are SWEET!!!! :banana:

The reason for a chute is due to the lack of positive spin recovery. Not too fond of the 2 attachment points for the flight control surfaces either. Controls are not a true "joystick" design. Boy, the list goes on... I definately do not like a design that will make concessions for the bottom line!

Maybe tasteless, but...

We had an airshow joke for a while asking why the Cirrus aircraft were at the main airport. It seemed logical for them to congregate around the ultralight area as they are powered chutes.

Columbia Aircraft has a much better fixed gear 4-seat single. Waaaaayyy stronger

None-the-less, I hate to hear of any GA airplane going down. I have lost way too many close friends through the years doing stupid things.
In a sensationalized media frenzy, especially in NY, I hope it doesn't hurt all of aviation.

Keep the greasy side down, unless you are in your boat!

flyingskibiker
10-13-2006, 05:25 PM
my CFI passed that on to ME!

Same thing I told my CFI...he didn't seem to find it as funny as I did.

flyingskibiker
10-13-2006, 05:31 PM
we pay $130/hr for the 172SP and $110/hr for the 172R. but these are both pre-glass panel. just the garmin gps suites...

same numbers for here...the Archer runs a little more ($10/hr) but it has twin 430's and is all but brand new.

flyingskibiker
10-13-2006, 05:37 PM
uh, no! it's like having a helmet fire... 8p


you mean the headset they wear starts on fire?? and they freak out and crash? did I assume correctly, :confused:

must be like when a bee gets in your helmet when driving a motorcycle.

flyingskibiker
10-13-2006, 05:44 PM
Mayor Says Fatal Crash Signals Need For No-Fly Zone

(Chicago, IL) -- Mayor Daley says Wednesday's crash of a
small airplane into a high-rise in New York City again shows
why downtown Chicago should be a no-fly zone. The mayor
says the crash in which New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle
and his flight instructor were killed is something that could
easily happen in Chicago. Daley became animated when
addressing reporters on the subject yesterday, sarcastically
saying Chicago is not a, quote, "special" place like Washington
DC and so doesn't get the same no-fly zone protection. He
also says Wednesday's crash is further proof his controversial
decision to close Meigs Field during the middle of the night in
March 2003 was the right move.


where is that hilly knoll again? 8p

Tom023
10-13-2006, 05:50 PM
As I said, though, it's hard for me to imagine that a flight instructor would be sitting there in the right seat with his hands in his lap in those last few minutes after the mayday call, or that an 88 hour private pilot is going to insist on being the sole manipulator of the controls with his instructor along .

Bigmac, I haven't read or heard anything about a mayday call being made, can you fill in the details?

Ric
10-13-2006, 05:53 PM
Bigmac, I haven't read or heard anything about a mayday call being made, can you fill in the details? Careful Tom
Don't be offensive;)

Tom023
10-13-2006, 06:59 PM
Careful Tom
Don't be offensive;)
Huh? Just interested in knowing what type of problems they were experiencing.

Ric
10-13-2006, 07:02 PM
Huh? Just interested in knowing what type of problems they were experiencing. :purplaugh: .

bigmac
10-13-2006, 07:04 PM
Bigmac, I haven't read or heard anything about a mayday call being made, can you fill in the details?

It's been part of several stories, including the early ones where Lidle reportedly issued a mayday call with a "fuel problem". Both the FAA and the NTSB initially said there was a mayday, although the NTSB apparently is backing off of that statement as of today.,

Look here (https://www.aero-news.net/news/featurestories.cfm?ContentBlockID=E081EA44-3BCB-4943-8747-2C2A1D769BC9&Dynamic=1) or here (http://nymag.com/daily/intel/it_just_happened/) . I read about it in the Mpls newspaper and IIRC one of the first stories on CNN.



Not sure what's going on with Ric there..

Tom023
10-13-2006, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the links Bmac. I watched the story on ESPN and saw the NTSB spokeswoman do a briefing the other night but didn't recall them indicating a call was made. Kind of strange how a straight forward fact like that would change later, I'm sure the ATC would have a recording they could review.

milkmania
10-13-2006, 09:48 PM
now A Rod's having plane problems:rolleyes:

Yankees | A. Rodriguez fine after plane skids off runway
Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:20:46 -0700
The Associated Press reports a private jet carrying New York Yankees 3B Alex Rodriguez overran a runway at Bob Hope Airport Friday, Oct. 13 and was stopped by an arresting system. None of the seven people, including Rodriguez, were injured in the incident. "I spoke to Alex. He's fine," said Scott Boras, Rodriguez's agent. The National Transportation Safety Board planned to retrieve the plane's cockpit voice recorder, gather radar data and evaluate how well the arresting system worked.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-14-2006, 04:17 PM
Mayor Says Fatal Crash Signals Need For No-Fly Zone

(Chicago, IL) -- Mayor Daley says Wednesday's crash of a
small airplane into a high-rise in New York City again shows
why downtown Chicago should be a no-fly zone. The mayor
says the crash in which New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle
and his flight instructor were killed is something that could
easily happen in Chicago. Daley became animated when
addressing reporters on the subject yesterday, sarcastically
saying Chicago is not a, quote, "special" place like Washington
DC and so doesn't get the same no-fly zone protection. He
also says Wednesday's crash is further proof his controversial
decision to close Meigs Field during the middle of the night in
March 2003 was the right move.


where is that hilly knoll again? 8p
As I hear, the opposition says that closing meigs has stalled emergency equipment if/and when it is needed. As I gather, it seems no one wants to wait and see what happens to see if that ends up being true except Daley.
This is going to be an on going fight for a long while.

MYMC
10-16-2006, 09:49 AM
Got the new issue of Plane & Pilot take a look at this article: http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2006/nov/cirrus_sr22.html

bigmac
10-16-2006, 10:13 AM
Got the new issue of Plane & Pilot take a look at this article: http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2006/nov/cirrus_sr22.htmlPretty interesting. A very cool plane, but clearly a plane for going places, not recreational flying. After almost 40 years a pilot, I find myself with little interest and certainly less justification for owning such a plane - looking at my log book, I see that about 95% of my flying in the last 10 years has been local, or at least less than 100 miles. I've become a fan of ultralights, and my ambition for my flying has become exactly the opposite of what the Cirrus represents - I want to walk out to the back shed, roll the thing into the lake and hop around from lake to lake at 45 mph. But wow! If you've got somewhere to go, looks like Cirrus is a great way to go.

MYMC
11-06-2006, 03:29 PM
Turn not tight enough in Manhattan Cirrus crash, NTSB says:

The Cirrus SR20 that plowed into a Manhattan skyscraper several weeks ago had only 1,700 feet in which to make a 180-degree canyon turn, and that was not enough room for the maneuver, the National Transportation Safety Board said last week. Compounding matters, a moderate easterly wind aloft blew the plane toward skyscrapers as it tried to turn around to avoid Class Bravo airspace nearby, effectively reducing the space for the turn to only 1,300 feet. New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor from California were both killed in the crash. Investigators calculated that to successfully make the turn, the plane would have needed to enter at a bank angle of 53 degrees, resulting in a load factor of 1.7 G's. Had the turn been started from the eastern edge of the East River, the turn could have been 2,100 feet wide, reducing the needed bank angle. The NTSB said there did not appear to be any mechanical problems with the plane, and it is attempting to recover data from the two GPS units found in the wreckage and from the plane's multi-function display.

bigmac
11-06-2006, 05:25 PM
Turn not tight enough in Manhattan Cirrus crash, NTSB says:

The Cirrus SR20 that plowed into a Manhattan skyscraper several weeks ago had only 1,700 feet in which to make a 180-degree canyon turn, and that was not enough room for the maneuver, the National Transportation Safety Board said last week. Compounding matters, a moderate easterly wind aloft blew the plane toward skyscrapers as it tried to turn around to avoid Class Bravo airspace nearby, effectively reducing the space for the turn to only 1,300 feet. New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor from California were both killed in the crash. Investigators calculated that to successfully make the turn, the plane would have needed to enter at a bank angle of 53 degrees, resulting in a load factor of 1.7 G's. Had the turn been started from the eastern edge of the East River, the turn could have been 2,100 feet wide, reducing the needed bank angle. The NTSB said there did not appear to be any mechanical problems with the plane, and it is attempting to recover data from the two GPS units found in the wreckage and from the plane's multi-function display.

I don't perceive a 53 degree bank and 1.7 G's as a particularly big deal. Not your everyday maneuver, but well within the performance envelope of that plane. Surely Corey Lidle's instructor had had him practice steep turns (60 degrees) as part of the checkout in that plane.

TMCNo1
11-06-2006, 05:36 PM
I don't perceive a 53 degree bank and 1.7 G's as a particularly big deal. Not your everyday maneuver, but well within the performance envelope of that plane. Surely Corey Lidle's instructor had had him practice steep turns (60 degrees) as part of the checkout in that plane.
Did the NTSB check the engine? Maybe they were running Mobil1 oil and a Fram filter!:eek: :rolleyes: :D

bigmac
11-06-2006, 06:11 PM
Did the NTSB check the engine? Maybe they were running Mobil1 oil and a Fram filter!:eek: :rolleyes: :DMy guess is that his teak platform created too much drag...;)

shepherd
11-06-2006, 06:24 PM
Fly the plane first, worry about the rules later. :cool:

MYMC
11-06-2006, 06:32 PM
I don't perceive a 53 degree bank and 1.7 G's as a particularly big deal. Not your everyday maneuver, but well within the performance envelope of that plane. Surely Corey Lidle's instructor had had him practice steep turns (60 degrees) as part of the checkout in that plane.
You must complete "steep turns" in your private pilot check ride...these are completed at 45' degrees of bank.

Maristar210
11-06-2006, 06:42 PM
You must complete "steep turns" in your private pilot check ride...these are completed at 45' degrees of bank.


I was going to say that. Sad story.

Maeghan's husband - Where did you find that?

Yes..... I said Maeghan's husband (smell the odor of jealousy)

JK Mike - On line somewhere? PLs/thx

Steve

bigmac
11-06-2006, 07:04 PM
You must complete "steep turns" in your private pilot check ride...these are completed at 45' degrees of bank.It's been 35 years since I did that check ride, but I thought 45 degrees was for turns-about-a-point. Anyway, 60 degree banks are legal IIRC - it's the threshold for what constitutes an aerobatic maneuver.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-06-2006, 07:17 PM
My guess is that his teak platform created too much drag...;)
I wouldnt talk smack about teak oil with NO1, he may bit*h slap you with a bottle of starbrite! ;)

TMCNo1
11-06-2006, 07:27 PM
My guess is that his teak platform created too much drag...;)


You go bigmac, I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TMCNo1
11-06-2006, 07:34 PM
I wouldnt talk smack about teak oil with NO1, he may bit*h slap you with a bottle of starbrite! ;)



Tonite is a good one, let's keep it going!
I got a terrible cold and something has got to make me feel better and this is helping! Thanks!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-06-2006, 07:49 PM
Tonite is a good one, let's keep it going!
I got a terrible cold and something has got to make me feel better and this is helping! Thanks!
a cold? well then you are in the right place! Bigmac is all about urban myth remedies to cure what ails you. A few glugs of castor oil should fix you right up! now thats CASTOR oil! not TEAK oil!!! get that straight soldier? Now do that, wrap a hot steaming towel around your head, and throw 2 shots of ginger flavored brandy over your left shoulder while facing west! (it wont work unless your facing west) This will get ALL your white blood cells marching in line togther facing the same direction, making them more effective(just like real soldiers). then boil 5 lbs. of garlic on your stove for several hours. . (this wont help your cold any, but it will keep people out of your house, so you dont have to deal with them and you can get some rest). after this, find some old Johnny Carson re-runs, and watch them. the precise pitch of ed mcmahon's voice laughing and repeatedly saying YES! will make your mucus membranes vibrate, disloding any ucky mucus stuck in your nose, eustachean tubes, etc...

TMCNo1
11-06-2006, 08:03 PM
a cold? well then you are in the right place! Bigmac is all about urban myth remedies to cure what ails you. A few glugs of castor oil should fix you right up! now thats CASTOR oil! not TEAK oil!!! get that straight soldier? Now do that, wrap a hot steaming towel around your head, and throw 2 shots of ginger flavored brandy over your left shoulder while facing west! (it wont work unless your facing west) This will get ALL your white blood cells marching in line togther facing the same direction, making them more effective(just like real soldiers). then boil 5 lbs. of garlic on your stove for several hours. . (this wont help your cold any, but it will keep people out of your house, so you dont have to deal with them and you can get some rest). after this, find some old Johnny Carson re-runs, and watch them. the precise pitch of ed mcmahon's voice laughing and repeatedly saying YES! will make your mucus membranes vibrate, disloding any ucky mucus stuck in your nose, eustachean tubes, etc...


And I thunk bigmac was the local TT practicaltissioner giving out medicalevel advise. Just think, if that cat up the street hadn't got sprayed by that skunk this morning, this wouldn't be happening!

shepherd
11-06-2006, 10:24 PM
It's been 35 years since I did that check ride, but I thought 45 degrees was for turns-about-a-point. Anyway, 60 degree banks are legal IIRC - it's the threshold for what constitutes an aerobatic maneuver.

It's also been a while since my last check ride, but I thought it was 60 degrees too. Wouldn't doubt it -- back then my instructor felt it was necessary to teach me how to do spins! :eek:

Carbon Dreams
11-06-2006, 11:40 PM
For Private Pilot's you are only required to perform 45 degree bank turns within +-5 degrees of bank, +- 100 foot loss or gain, +-10 knots, and rolling out within 10 degrees of entry heading.

Commercial Pilot applicants have to maintain 50 degree banks +-5 with the same performance criteria of Private Pilot applicants.

These are minimums for the private and commercial pilots. Most instructors teach to higher standards. I always demanded my students to fly as if they had to prove themselves on every flight. Strive for perfection, and you will always have something to work on.

We should never percieve ourselves as experts, we are and always will be students.

MYMC
11-07-2006, 08:26 AM
For Private Pilot's you are only required to perform 45 degree bank turns within +-5 degrees of bank, +- 100 foot loss or gain, +-10 knots, and rolling out within 10 degrees of entry heading.

Commercial Pilot applicants have to maintain 50 degree banks +-5 with the same performance criteria of Private Pilot applicants.

These are minimums for the private and commercial pilots. Most instructors teach to higher standards. I always demanded my students to fly as if they had to prove themselves on every flight. Strive for perfection, and you will always have something to work on.

We should never percieve ourselves as experts, we are and always will be students.
What he said!
(funny, every instructor I've had in my adult life from racing to skiing to flying has said the same thing..."practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does". Maybe one day I'll live up to it.)

MYMC
11-07-2006, 08:29 AM
I was going to say that. Sad story.

Maeghan's husband - Where did you find that?

Yes..... I said Maeghan's husband (smell the odor of jealousy)

JK Mike - On line somewhere? PLs/thx

Steve
I received yesterday in the Ipilot.com newsletter.

bigmac
11-26-2007, 12:28 PM
Another Cirrus went down, I see...

http://www.wisn.com/news/14692639/detail.html

17 accidents, 35 fatalities in six years. Ouch.

Maristar210
11-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Another Cirrus went down, I see...

http://www.wisn.com/news/14692639/detail.html

17 accidents, 35 fatalities in six years. Ouch.

Hey Mike (MYMC) Whats up with all these Cirrus' going down?

MYMC
11-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Hey Mike (MYMC) Whats up with all these Cirrus' going down?

Here is the history before this accident:
29 fatal Cirrus accidents involving 57 fatalities and 9 injuries
(fewer accidents in NTSB database because not all foreign accidents appear)

10 fatal accidents in SR20, 19 in SR22
(ratio of 1:2 is more than production ratio of 1:3)

6 accidents at night, 23 in day

26 accident pilots were non-members of COPA, 3 were COPA members
(Cirrus Owners and Pilots assoc.)

20 accidents in bad weather, 9 in good weather

10 accidents under IFR, 19 under VFR

0.97 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours of flying in past 12 months
(compares to GA rate of 1.33)

1.28 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours of flying in past 3 years
(compares to GA rate of 1.33)

__________________________________________________ __________
Looking at the COPA website and the NTSB reports it appears as though the pilot was having trouble landing due to the 80 degree crosswind component (gusts at the time were 20+ knots). The pilot had gone around once due to the winds and was attempting a second time when the accident happened. The airplane was brand new (November delivery) and was a SR22G3...lots of questions, but a real tragedy.

Sodar
11-26-2007, 01:21 PM
I never posted this, but this landed infront of my parent's home about a month or so ago....

29432

Here is the story (http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/local/losalamitos/article_1899280.php)

88 PS190
11-26-2007, 02:12 PM
landing on sand like that has to be very tricky, I assume that's how the prop damage occured, bet the wheels sunk in to the sand pretty quickly.

Mikey
11-26-2007, 02:29 PM
This might be a dumb question but, are pilots fined/penalized for having to make emergency landings in public places such as beaches/roads?

MYMC
11-26-2007, 04:45 PM
This might be a dumb question but, are pilots fined/penalized for having to make emergency landings in public places such as beaches/roads?
Depends if the pilot was to blame.

MYMC
11-26-2007, 04:47 PM
landing on sand like that has to be very tricky, I assume that's how the prop damage occured, bet the wheels sunk in to the sand pretty quickly.
Tail dragger...you can get away with this kind of stuff.

Sodar
11-26-2007, 04:54 PM
landing on sand like that has to be very tricky, I assume that's how the prop damage occured, bet the wheels sunk in to the sand pretty quickly.

Exactly... I was one of the first 10 people down there and when I got down there, the plane was nose down, with the tail in the air. The two pilots got out and grabbed the tail to correct it.

I had no idea that propellers were made of wood. Are most this way? I would have thought it would have been composite...

MYMC
11-26-2007, 05:21 PM
Exactly... I was one of the first 10 people down there and when I got down there, the plane was nose down, with the tail in the air. The two pilots got out and grabbed the tail to correct it.

I had no idea that propellers were made of wood. Are most this way? I would have thought it would have been composite...
Most are aluminum; however, composites are coming on strong.

Lennyp04
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Exactly... I was one of the first 10 people down there and when I got down there, the plane was nose down, with the tail in the air. The two pilots got out and grabbed the tail to correct it.

I had no idea that propellers were made of wood. Are most this way? I would have thought it would have been composite...


Yeah Same here. I always thought they were made of something other then wood like fiberglass or maybe aluminum.

88 PS190
11-26-2007, 06:01 PM
The Extra 300 was started late 80's so there is a fair amount of time there.

historically I would bet that the majority of airplane props have been wood.

In my mind it has some advantages, surely breaking like that took some force away from the engine and out of the airframe in that hit. You can also duplicate wood a single model using a duplicator and produce identical surfaces many at a time.

I'm sure modern composites and and aluminum are great but that's not always been as easy as wood.

MYMC
11-26-2007, 06:25 PM
The Extra 300 was started late 80's so there is a fair amount of time there.

historically I would bet that the majority of airplane props have been wood.

In my mind it has some advantages, surely breaking like that took some force away from the engine and out of the airframe in that hit. You can also duplicate wood a single model using a duplicator and produce identical surfaces many at a time.

I'm sure modern composites and and aluminum are great but that's not always been as easy as wood.
All true...but with a prop strike the engine has to come apart no matter what the prop was made out of.

88 PS190
11-26-2007, 07:04 PM
Ha ha has to? or HAS too... no one knows but person themselves. (not in this case)

I'm always amazed by the stuff that people will fly with.

My bike has these bing carbs on them, I'm always screwing around with stuck floats etc. Yet they have been used on planes, I don't see how people can trust those.

I even rebuilt both of them, new needles floats etc. and still every so often I'll get a float stuck and gas flying all over my shoe. What happens if you're flying and it starts in on that???

phecksel
11-26-2007, 09:53 PM
What happens if you're flying and it starts in on that???
You declare an emergency, land, and sell the #%#$^ plane.

Been there, done that