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View Full Version : Faster Ballast Pumps - anyone know of some???


prostar205
10-09-2006, 06:36 PM
I was just wondering if anyone has installed or investigated whether there is a faster ballast pump on the market. With people adding 2X - 3X the amount of ballast that came stock with their MC, it is taking alot longer to fill the tanks with the stock Jabsco Reversible Ballast Pumps. For my application, 2 - 750 lb capacity Pro X bags in the rear and the stock 400 lb bag in the ski locker, it can take me up to 1 hour to fill the entire system. At 6 gpm as the fill rate on my Jabsco pump, it takes approximately 20 minutes to fill one 750 lb bag. Furthermore, I can only fill one bag at a time because the water for each pump is pulled from a manifold. It would certainly be nicer if MC made a direct water inlet for each pump.

Workin' 4 Toys
10-09-2006, 07:01 PM
An HOUR........ WOW..!!:eek:

dapicatti
10-09-2006, 08:16 PM
I don't know if I would wait an hour....you have more patience than me.

beatle78
10-09-2006, 09:26 PM
how about these simer pumps- model BW8512?

http://www.advancedbearings.com/Simer.htm

Check out this link for a NICE custom balllast install....
http://www.wakesiderides.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17225&st=20

Maristar210
10-09-2006, 10:14 PM
I was just wondering if anyone has installed or investigated whether there is a faster ballast pump on the market. With people adding 2X - 3X the amount of ballast that came stock with their MC, it is taking alot longer to fill the tanks with the stock Jabsco Reversible Ballast Pumps. For my application, 2 - 750 lb capacity Pro X bags in the rear and the stock 400 lb bag in the ski locker, it can take me up to 1 hour to fill the entire system. At 6 gpm as the fill rate on my Jabsco pump, it takes approximately 20 minutes to fill one 750 lb bag. Furthermore, I can only fill one bag at a time because the water for each pump is pulled from a manifold. It would certainly be nicer if MC made a direct water inlet for each pump.


I can think of a ton of ways to eliminate this issue. Keep looking here...


Steve

prostar205
10-10-2006, 01:56 AM
I can think of a ton of ways to eliminate this issue. Keep looking here...


Steve

Steve -

I'm not quite following you on this one????

Diesel
10-10-2006, 09:29 AM
If you are filling from the bottom of the bag you are loosing a lot of performance from the pumps due to head pressure. Reduce friction loss in the system and reduce head pressure at the pump and you will decrease fill time. So far the Jabsco pums seem to have the best performance of all the pumps I have looked at. I think it is just a matter of redesigning the system to achieve their full potential.

P-hat_in_Cincy
10-10-2006, 09:53 AM
Aerator pumps (similar to bilge pumps) have MUCH better capacity. However, each type (impeller or aerator) has overall design considerations that one must make.

Rich_G
10-10-2006, 10:25 AM
this is the pump I'm considering to fill a 3 bag system. It requires a 1.5" thru-hull. Each bag will have its own 1100 gph pump for empty. This it the biggest aerator pump I am aware of; cost is around $150. Anybody else using this?

Harvey
10-10-2006, 10:49 AM
I can fill 1870 lbs in just under 12 minutes with three Jabsco ballast puppies. It is not the ideal way to fill but filling 4 bags it works like a champ. It would be nice if mastercraft seperated off the inlets however that greatly increases the costs. If they do that they then need three shutoff valves (safety) to control the system as well as more drain lines through the hull (2 currently). With one input and a manifold they only need one shutoff valve and two drains through the hull. They might need to reengineer the system. Perhaps different size pumps with a larger manifold and larger diameter hoses could produce quicker fill time. At 12 minute fill time I haven't felt the need to change it. Like diesel says fill from the top.

In addition you will end up with a washed out wake if you put 1500 lbs in the rear and only the stock in the front. I am not sure which model you have but in my X1 it needs to be about 50% front/50% back or even 60% front/40% back. With the extra motor weight in the rear you need less in the back than you think.

cbryan70
10-10-2006, 11:09 AM
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/357400118.htm?bct=t13037503%3Bcielectrical-plumbing%3Bcipumps%3Bciwater-pumps

What about that?

prostar205
10-10-2006, 12:07 PM
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/357400118.htm?bct=t13037503%3Bcielectrical-plumbing%3Bcipumps%3Bciwater-pumps

What about that?


That is the one I have in the boat right now - it's capacity is about 6 gpm.

prostar205
10-10-2006, 12:11 PM
If you are filling from the bottom of the bag you are loosing a lot of performance from the pumps due to head pressure. Reduce friction loss in the system and reduce head pressure at the pump and you will decrease fill time. So far the Jabsco pums seem to have the best performance of all the pumps I have looked at. I think it is just a matter of redesigning the system to achieve their full potential.

Diesel -

I completely understand the issue with filling from the bottom and how it leads to inefficiency in the system. However, while filling from the top would solve this problem, doesn't it create an issue when you drain the system. How does the bag drain from the front without someone standing on the bag creating an artifficial "head" of water? Is is possible to fill from the top and drain from the bottom? If so, I would guess I would need a one way value where the fill and drain hoses come together.

prostar205
10-10-2006, 12:16 PM
I can fill 1870 lbs in just under 12 minutes with three Jabsco ballast puppies. It is not the ideal way to fill but filling 4 bags it works like a champ. It would be nice if mastercraft seperated off the inlets however that greatly increases the costs. If they do that they then need three shutoff valves (safety) to control the system as well as more drain lines through the hull (2 currently). With one input and a manifold they only need one shutoff valve and two drains through the hull. They might need to reengineer the system. Perhaps different size pumps with a larger manifold and larger diameter hoses could produce quicker fill time. At 12 minute fill time I haven't felt the need to change it. Like diesel says fill from the top.

In addition you will end up with a washed out wake if you put 1500 lbs in the rear and only the stock in the front. I am not sure which model you have but in my X1 it needs to be about 50% front/50% back or even 60% front/40% back. With the extra motor weight in the rear you need less in the back than you think.

Harvey -

How in the world do you fill an 1,870 lb ballast system in 12 minutes. First of all, I can not run all three pumps at the same time, it trips the 40A main breaker. Second, the manifold box is not large enough to supply three pumps with enough water. Even with two pumps going, they end up "fighting" over the water in the manifold.

Are you running the stock MC ballast pumps? Did you just change out the hard tanks from the Pro X bags? What is your setup?

I am seriously considering removing the manifold box and add two more pickup areas so each pump will have a dedicated pickup. I will then have to have a seperate drain thru hull fitting for each pump.

Maristar210
10-10-2006, 12:26 PM
Steve -

I'm not quite following you on this one????

I guess what I should have said is do a search on the topic. I just had two of the Tsunami pumps that I gave away to Tscott. They are similar to the ones I have that fill a 600# bag in about 2-3 minutes.

Best of luck - Steve

prostar205
10-10-2006, 12:35 PM
I guess what I should have said is do a search on the topic. I just had two of the Tsunami pumps that I gave away to Tscott. They are similar to the ones I have that fill a 600# bag in about 2-3 minutes.

Best of luck - Steve

Steve -

That is certainly one idea - however, I would my ballast system to be totally automatic. I do not want to have to hook up bilge type pumps and throw them overboard. One of the reasons I bought the boat was because of the automatic ballast system.

Diesel
10-10-2006, 12:56 PM
Diesel -

I completely understand the issue with filling from the bottom and how it leads to inefficiency in the system. However, while filling from the top would solve this problem, doesn't it create an issue when you drain the system. How does the bag drain from the front without someone standing on the bag creating an artifficial "head" of water? Is is possible to fill from the top and drain from the bottom? If so, I would guess I would need a one way value where the fill and drain hoses come together.

You can do it with one way check valves or addtional pumps. Two pumps per bag would be ideal and something I am considering for my rear sac. I did not fill the sacs much this year so the project got put on hold. I do know last year fill times for 100 gal in the rear sac were around 25 minutes and to empty was around 8 mins. The potential is there with the factory pumps it is just a matter of maximizing efficiency.

You do not have a flow shortage in the intake. I too initally thought his could be a problem but my intial calculations showed the factory intake would flow plenty of water to meet the capacity of the factory pumps. The intake is not the problem it is what happens after the intake that slows the system down, how much depends on the design of your system. No need to punch in more holes in the boat.

P-hat_in_Cincy
10-10-2006, 01:31 PM
Diesel -

I completely understand the issue with filling from the bottom and how it leads to inefficiency in the system. However, while filling from the top would solve this problem, doesn't it create an issue when you drain the system. How does the bag drain from the front without someone standing on the bag creating an artifficial "head" of water? Is is possible to fill from the top and drain from the bottom? If so, I would guess I would need a one way value where the fill and drain hoses come together.

Using the impeller pumps (Jabsco / Simer), the bags drain fine from the top since the pumps are self priming. Also, the bags will 'collapse' on themselves as the water level drops (a swing check valve on the vent line will help this). However, the fill/drain port should probably be near the top rear of the bag to take into account the natural pitch of the boat. This will help to get the maximum amount of water out.

In my setup I fill/drain from the top rear of the bag and vent off the top front.

I think filling from the top and draining from the bottom requires check/ball valves and/or multiple pumps. (Oops...Diesel beat me to it.)

prostar205
10-10-2006, 01:51 PM
Thanks Diesel and P-Hat for the input.

Does anyone know where I can get a one way valve for a 3/4" line?

DanC
10-10-2006, 01:59 PM
Just to throw more confusion at you all...

I thought the Jabscos were rated at 10 gpm? The Simer is rated at 10 gpm and they are virtually the same pump without the electrical extras of the Jabsco (run dry protection, spark protection, temp cut off...).

I run four Simers simultaneously off four seperate electrical circuits. Electrical current flow is critical to get max performance from these pumps. They also have large start up current draws.

I fill up three sacks simultaneously in less than 9 minutes. I have done tests and timed them with a stop watch under varing conditions, at speed, different rpms, etc. (do a search for danc and simer pumps, you will find more details and pictures)

I have four simers being fed from a 1" mushroom fitting in the bottom. The 1" fitting does not limit my water flow rate until I turn on all four pumps. I normally run only three pumps at once, the fourth is for surfing sacks on the floor. Manifolds with 90 degree elbows will kill your flow rate. Mine is made with "Y" fittings and I "dremeled" out the inside of some of them to increase the ID.

Filling and draining from the bottom of the sack works very fast for me. In fact it seems to be less head pressure than pumping the extra height to get to the top of the sack. My sack that is higher in the boat and is filled/drained from a top fitting is slower than my sack that is lower in the boat and is filled/drained from a bottom fitting.

DanC
10-10-2006, 02:00 PM
Does anyone know where I can get a one way valve for a 3/4" line?

West Marine

P-hat_in_Cincy
10-10-2006, 02:28 PM
Thanks Diesel and P-Hat for the input.

Does anyone know where I can get a one way valve for a 3/4" line?

There are different types of 1 way valves. I used PVC swing check valves b/c I think they offer the least resistance to flow. However, they must be oriented correctly. It's also what MC used on the stock system.

Here is a BOM from my project. The costs may not be accurate, but should capture the source of most items accurately.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/paulbro/Boat%20misc/BOM.jpg

DanC...Those are some interesting observations.

Diesel
10-10-2006, 02:44 PM
West Marine

I also saw them the other day at Home Depot.

prostar205
10-10-2006, 02:49 PM
Steve -

Thanks for the BOM. You must be an engineer working in a manufacturing environment. I show know, I am a mechanical engineer working in the military aerospace industry.

Question: You listed new rocker switch covers. However, when I went to the web site on your BOM, I could not find the ones that had the actual lettering on them that said FILL, EMPTY, etc.... I assume you got those direct from your MC dealer. If so, can I just replace the covers? The letter is wearing off mine.

If your system works great by filling and draining from the top, I guess the easiest solution from me would be to move my fill/drain line to the top rear of each Pro X bag and put a one-way check valve on the vent line. Do you think that would work? If not I could fill from the top rear, drain from the bottom rear. I would have to "Y" the fill and drain lines together and add one-way check valves on both the fill and drain lines.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Tom

P-hat_in_Cincy
10-10-2006, 03:25 PM
Steve -

Thanks for the BOM. You must be an engineer working in a manufacturing environment. I show know, I am a mechanical engineer working in the military aerospace industry.

Question: You listed new rocker switch covers. However, when I went to the web site on your BOM, I could not find the ones that had the actual lettering on them that said FILL, EMPTY, etc.... I assume you got those direct from your MC dealer. If so, can I just replace the covers? The letter is wearing off mine.

If your system works great by filling and draining from the top, I guess the easiest solution from me would be to move my fill/drain line to the top rear of each Pro X bag and put a one-way check valve on the vent line. Do you think that would work? If not I could fill from the top rear, drain from the bottom rear. I would have to "Y" the fill and drain lines together and add one-way check valves on both the fill and drain lines.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Tom

I assume you meant me instead of 'Steve' :D

The method of fill/drain from top rear and vent with c/v from top front is exactly my setup.

beatle78 posted a link to my install (thanks for the compliment beatle78) that you can use as reference/baseline. There are tons of pictures for show and tell. http://www.wakesiderides.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17225

Either I'm not following exactly what your saying with the alternate fill/drain method, or something is out of whack. More detail please.

The rocker switch covers I did get from a dealer (MasterCraft of Charlotte) to get the callouts on them. They simply snapped in.

I'm not an engineer, but I did stay...ahh never mind. :D Actually, I do have an engineering/technical background.

Paul

prostar205
10-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Paul -

The alternate solution I was thinking was the following:

1) run a hose to the top rear opening in the Pro X bag for the fill side.
2) run another sepearte hose to the bottom rear side of the Pro X bag for the drain
3) add one-eay check valves inline on both the fill and drain lines to prevent water from going into the drain line when the fill operation is underway.
4) add a "Y" type connector to patch in boh the fill and drain lines in each pump.

Does that make better sense?

Tom

DanC
10-10-2006, 04:22 PM
If your system works great by filling and draining from the top, I guess the easiest solution from me would be to move my fill/drain line to the top rear of each Pro X bag and put a one-way check valve on the vent line.

That is how I do it. (actually one bag fills/drains from the bottom, one bag fills/drains from the side, one bag fills/drains from the top)

If not I could fill from the top rear, drain from the bottom rear. I would have to "Y" the fill and drain lines together and add one-way check valves on both the fill and drain lines.


Some do it this way and it works very well but the extra fittings and check valves will reduce your water flow rate.

BobL
05-02-2007, 06:06 PM
It looks like the Simer BW8512 will only pump 10 gpm, anyone know of a faster reversable pump that will both fill and drain?

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-02-2007, 10:03 PM
The Jabscos and Simers seem to be the front runners in reversible system designs for boats. I'm sure there are higher capacity pumps out there, but they may be too big or demand too much power for a boat.

If you must use reversible and need more capacity you could always add more pumps.

For example: If my system can handle 2200lbs of water ballast.

2200lbs / 8.33lbs/gal = 264.1 gallons of water.
Pump capacity = 10gpm (optimistic)
1 pump: 264.1 gallons / 10gpm = 26.41 minutes
2 pumps: 264.1 gallons / 20gpm = 13.2 minutes
3 pumps: 264.1 gallons / 30gpm = 8.8 minutes
4 pumps (my system): 264.1 gallons / 40gpm = 6.6mins.

Obviously you have to determine the amount of time you want to wait and design the system around that. Anything around the 10min. mark would seem acceptable because by the time you drop in the boat, get to your riding spot, and suit up it might be more than that anyway.

tex
05-02-2007, 10:19 PM
The ball bearings have gone bad in your Flux Capacitor!

tommcat
05-03-2007, 07:42 AM
this is the pump I'm considering to fill a 3 bag system. It requires a 1.5" thru-hull. Each bag will have its own 1100 gph pump for empty. This it the biggest aerator pump I am aware of; cost is around $150. Anybody else using this?
are they reversible?

Rich_G
05-03-2007, 10:52 AM
are they reversible?

No, that is an Aerator pump; not reversible. BTW, I did not go with that pump. I made a manifold split into 3 parts, each supplying a Rule 1100 gph pump; each pump filling 1 bag. On the back of each bag is another 1100 gph pump to empty that bag; so 6 pumps total. Rule, Tsunami, Johnson, Attwood pumps are aerator style and are not reversible.

cbaird
05-03-2007, 12:44 PM
I belive the pre 03 pumps and hoses are different then after. My 05 x2 has the jabsco puppys which say on them 80gpm, they fill a 750 sac in about 10minutes, the stock in just a few. Also, I can run all 3 at the same time. I have a friend with an '03 xstar and he can only run 1 at a time or blow a circuit, also his take a long time to fill.

tommcat
05-03-2007, 01:16 PM
i have jabsco ballast puppies in mine and am fairly happy with them. only downside so far is the impeller sticks sometimes and the pump doesnt want to kick on

cbaird
05-03-2007, 01:42 PM
There are new yellow impellers which help with that.

tommcat
05-03-2007, 02:09 PM
There are new yellow impellers which help with that.from Jabsco directly?