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shepherd
10-05-2006, 09:30 AM
Now I'm well into restoring my 1990 PS 190. I hope to install a new sound system over the winter. I don't know much about what's good out there. Anybody want to provide a "shopping list"? Keep in mind that I ain't rich (even though I own a Mastercraft :rolleyes: ). I'm thinking four 6 1/4" round speakers because that's what is there now with the cutouts in the upholstery. No tower so no more than four speakers. Maybe a sub and amp up under the bow. For a head unit, I'd like to be able to just plug in my iPod so I don't have to carry a pack of CDs with me.

I don't want to kill the fish, but I do like to rock out sometimes :headbang:

What do you audio guys out there suggest? Brand/model recommendations?

Thanks.

bcampbe7
10-05-2006, 09:44 AM
Now I'm well into restoring my 1990 PS 190. I hope to install a new sound system over the winter. I don't know much about what's good out there. Anybody want to provide a "shopping list"? Keep in mind that I ain't rich (even though I own a Mastercraft :rolleyes: ). I'm thinking four 6 1/4" round speakers because that's what is there now with the cutouts in the upholstery. No tower so no more than four speakers. Maybe a sub and amp up under the bow. For a head unit, I'd like to be able to just plug in my iPod so I don't have to carry a pack of CDs with me.

I don't want to kill the fish, but I do like to rock out sometimes :headbang:

What do you audio guys out there suggest? Brand/model recommendations?

Thanks.

Take a look at Eclipse speakers. I have a pair in my boat. They are a very clean sounding speaker.


Eclipse (http://www.eclipse-web.com/speaker/index.html)

EDIT:
I just have regular Eclipse speakers, not the marine version.

jaxrider
10-05-2006, 12:45 PM
For the head unit, you need any a unit with a AUX input on the radio. Once you install the radio you will need to get a RCA cable for your Ipod(It will be Ipod specific with a terminal that connects to the earplug on the ipod and RCA's on the other end). Then your can control the volume with your Ipod along with other functions.
As far as brands, I suggest Pioneer. They have a good amount of function with a reasonable cost and they are durable. I have had a few sony's in the past and I dont have one good thing to say about them.

As far as the speakers go, it is an opinion on philosophy. Some people wont spend too much on speakers because the get wet and are exposed to the elements a lot. Others will go with high-end products that sound great and cost a lot. As for me I just use regualr car audio speakers. They seem to last about 2 years or so (even getting wet) and then I replace them with newer stuff. With that in mind I go with middle cost speakers so it dosent kill my wallet when it is time to replace.

Just my .02

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 12:50 PM
I love the JL Audio set up in my boat and even like the stock Clarion head, though others seem to prefer a Sony head unit.

shepherd
10-05-2006, 01:12 PM
Do I need an amp? I know the answer is probably yes if I want a sub. Will I need separate amps for the sub and for the rest of the system? What do you recommend there?

My existing system (currently dead due to water ingestion) is a single CD Pioneer unit and four 6" round Polk car speakers.

Also, would it be worthwhile going to a local car audio shop to get some expert advice/installation?

rodltg2
10-05-2006, 01:15 PM
i would go Kraco all the way :D

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 01:18 PM
Do I need an amp? I know the answer is probably yes if I want a sub. Will I need separate amps for the sub and for the rest of the system? What do you recommend there?

My existing system (currently dead due to water ingestion) is a single CD Pioneer unit and four 6" round Polk car speakers.

Also, would it be worthwhile going to a local car audio shop to get some expert advice/installation?

If you're not running a sub, you don't NEED a separate amp just for 4 speakers.

If you're just swapping out head and speakers install should be pretty easy, assuming you don't have to do any cutting. If you do, it depends on how skilled you are and what you've got in your tool box.

If you're running fresh wiring, just make sure you wrap it all and route it well.

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 01:18 PM
i would go Kraco all the way :D

8-track or cassette tape?

rodltg2
10-05-2006, 01:21 PM
8 track if you can find it! wish i could help but been out of the stereo game for awhile now.. to much new stuff comes out every year..

kalanic
10-05-2006, 01:30 PM
LOL! Isn't Kraco stock in BU's!
i would go Kraco all the way :D

shepherd
10-05-2006, 01:32 PM
OK, so without a sub I'd only want an amp if I'm going to put like a hundred speakers on my boat. Makes sense.

Looks like I'll go with a new head unit, replace the existing four speakers using the same holes. So, the only thing new I'll be adding would be a subwoofer and amp. I saw your amp installation thread Arch. You all got me a little worried about overheating so maybe I'll look for an amp with built in fans(?). Also, will I need another battery?

A Kraco system sounds pretty cool. Where can I get it???
.
.
.
.
:D

kalanic
10-05-2006, 01:37 PM
Kenwwod has also come out with very nice Marine decks, depending on where you plan on having the head unit will tell you if you need a deck that will resist the elements on a boat. Always remember when wiring to keep all audio wiring away from power wiring. My opinion on speakers in the 6-1/4" is that all major manufacturers of audio are makin these days for Marine applications. I would make sure they are full range for your use & have either a built in crossover or install an external crossover. If istalling a sub, you gotta ask how loud & type of bass you are listening to. Hip Hop/Rap bass is a big differance than Metallica or Lynard Syknard. Just my $.02!

DanC
10-05-2006, 02:00 PM
OK, so without a sub I'd only want an amp if I'm going to put like a hundred speakers on my boat. Makes sense.


Archie said you don't NEED to get an amp for your four speakers, but if you plan to crank your deck volume up past 2/3's I suggest you put in an amp. Your speakers will last longer :D

I am not a big fan of Sony but they have several advantages.
1) they have superior skip protection
2) they have better options for wired AND IR remote controls (including some other mfg brands)
3) their $/feature (such as number of inputs, number of outputs...) tends to be a bit less than other brands

I have used Sony non-marine decks in my boats for years, no complaints (plenty of complaints about my Pioneer and Clarion)

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Kenwwod has also come out with very nice Marine decks, depending on where you plan on having the head unit will tell you if you need a deck that will resist the elements on a boat. Always remember when wiring to keep all audio wiring away from power wiring. My opinion on speakers in the 6-1/4" is that all major manufacturers of audio are makin these days for Marine applications. I would make sure they are full range for your use & have either a built in crossover or install an external crossover. If istalling a sub, you gotta ask how loud & type of bass you are listening to. Hip Hop/Rap bass is a big differance than Metallica or Lynard Syknard. Just my $.02!

Sorry to threadjack here, but Kalanic, I'm just finishing up the install of my tower speakers tonight (praying for no rain) and have two Qs based on your comments above.

First, just for convenience sake, I ran my remote turn on wire to my amp in the same conduit as my RCA cables (output head to amp input). I figured that was cool. I'm assuming you're saying just keep the main power wires away, which I have done. Correct?

Second, I have NOT used the crossover wiring set-up on my amp (just wired the speakers straight up, but I believe all of the JL speakers have crossovers on them. Any issues with doing that? Gonna run that by the stereo guy I got the amp from as well, but thought I'd throw that in here as well.

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 02:12 PM
Archie said you don't NEED to get an amp for your four speakers, but if you plan to crank your deck volume up past 2/3's I suggest you put in an amp. Your speakers will last longer :D


Yeah, plus let me caveat my comments by disclosing the fact that I don't hear much in my right ear, so my set up may really sound like crap and I don't even know it. My hearing is such that I can't pick up the direction which sound is coming from very well (you know kinda like when you say hi to Grandpa and he looks in three directions before he finally realizes it was you talking).

kalanic
10-05-2006, 05:49 PM
It may be OK, but the first time you hear siganl noise, that would be what I fixed first. My rule of thumb when I do installs is keep power wiring opposite of audio wiring. Depending on the type of RCA's you went with, high end RCA's have very good noise protection based on their construction. I ran my remote wire straight to one of my accessory switches all by itself.
Your amp should have built in crossover circuitry if you can switch your range on your channels from high/full/low pass.

Archimedes
10-05-2006, 05:58 PM
It may be OK, but the first time you hear siganl noise, that would be what I fixed first. My rule of thumb when I do installs is keep power wiring opposite of audio wiring. Depending on the type of RCA's you went with, high end RCA's have very good noise protection based on their construction. I ran my remote wire straight to one of my accessory switches all by itself.
Your amp should have built in crossover circuitry if you can switch your range on your channels from high/full/low pass.

Thanks. All my cableing in Audison, which I understand is very high end stuff from what I've heard. I'll probably pull out the remote wire and put it in a separate conduit just to be safe.

My amp does have a built in crossover, but I didn't wire the speaker outputs for crossover and don't intend to use the HP/LP switch based on my setup (no sub). But I did notice the speakers have crossover wiring. I'm gonna see how it all sounds and then make adjustments as necessary.

kalanic
10-05-2006, 06:01 PM
I think your doin the right thing, just tune by ear & make adjustments as needed.

SKI*MC
10-05-2006, 10:40 PM
Polk MOMO speakers are ok to use in marine environments. I have 4 MTX 6.5's and just a Duel Head unit, im getting either an Alpine, Panosonic, or Pioneer to replace. My Duel is for sale! ;)

parks_jr_55
10-06-2006, 12:29 AM
Don't get Dual. Go with the Alpine CDA- 9856 it is 199.99 at best buy and then they have the alpine fast cable for the ipod which is 30. The deck is already interfaced so the ipod is completly controlled through the deck. Then put in a 12" Alpine Type R sub with an Alpine 400 watt Mono Block Class D amp. Throw in some Alpine 6.5" Type S speakers and you are set.

shepherd
10-06-2006, 08:05 AM
Parks, I like your idea. Is there much signal loss between the Alpine deck and iPod? I'll go out to Best Buy this weekend and check it out.

Thanks for your input everybody. :)

parks_jr_55
10-06-2006, 09:34 AM
There is barely any. It sounds awesome and is easy to use....that way you could have them put your deck anywhere..and then run the Ipod cable to somewhere where its dry adn your ipod wont get touched and you are set.

The two decks you could go with are the

CDA-9856 or 9852
The 9856 will give you the option of being Satellite radio ready for both XM and Sirius and will also have 3 RCA preouts as compared to 1 on the 9852.

I personally wouldn't go anything but Alpine. I work in the Car Audio department at a Best Buy up here in Wisconsin so if you run into any trouble while your there you are welcome to ask me.

3event
10-06-2006, 09:51 AM
Don't get Dual. Go with the Alpine CDA- 9856 it is 199.99 at best buy and then they have the alpine fast cable for the ipod which is 30. The deck is already interfaced so the ipod is completly controlled through the deck. Then put in a 12" Alpine Type R sub with an Alpine 400 watt Mono Block Class D amp. Throw in some Alpine 6.5" Type S speakers and you are set.

Parks, what are the approx prices on sub, amp, and spkrs? Anyone remember what the size the knockout is in the 197 for a sub?

thanks!

caliguyinTN
10-06-2006, 10:08 AM
There is barely any. It sounds awesome and is easy to use....that way you could have them put your deck anywhere..and then run the Ipod cable to somewhere where its dry adn your ipod wont get touched and you are set.

The two decks you could go with are the

CDA-9856 or 9852
The 9856 will give you the option of being Satellite radio ready for both XM and Sirius and will also have 3 RCA preouts as compared to 1 on the 9852.

I personally wouldn't go anything but Alpine. I work in the Car Audio department at a Best Buy up here in Wisconsin so if you run into any trouble while your there you are welcome to ask me.



I just installed the 9856 and i have to say it is awesome. No sound lost when using the ipod. Just plug it in and forget about it. The headunit also has so many sound tweaking options, it really makes a huge difference. Plus if you want to spend another 20, buy the wireless remote. I use when we are floating and everyone is chilling on the swim deck. Great headunit. You wont be disappointed. Just study the manual and play around with it. At first the controls are alittle confusing but one outing with it will clear everything up.

shepherd
10-06-2006, 10:39 AM
If everything else is equal, I'll probably go with the 9852 if it's any cheaper since I won't be needing satellite capability on my boat and one iPod plug will be enough. But I'll probably need the remote because I may have to mount it under the deck to keep it dry (no room in the PS190 dash for a radio cover). Can I use a remote with the 9852?

Also, anybody here have an under-deck mounted head unit? If so, I'd like to see pics or at least get info on how you mounted it.

Thanks a lot.

-Jim

caliguyinTN
10-06-2006, 10:49 AM
If everything else is equal, I'll probably go with the 9852 if it's any cheaper since I won't be needing satellite capability on my boat and one iPod plug will be enough. But I'll probably need the remote because I may have to mount it under the deck to keep it dry (no room in the PS190 dash for a radio cover). Can I use a remote with the 9852?

Also, anybody here have an under-deck mounted head unit? If so, I'd like to see pics or at least get info on how you mounted it.

Thanks a lot.

-Jim

both headunits only have 1 ipod plug. The rca's are to hook up amps to the headunit. the more rca's, the more amps you can add without losing sound quality. I have a PS190 and the headunit is installed right behind the passenger into the dash. Its in a waterproof box with a cover. I still use the controls on the headunit to search artists, albums and songs as well as mess with the sound. The remote is for skipping to the next song, muting or raising the volume. Not sure if the 9852 has a wireless remote capability.

shepherd
10-06-2006, 11:04 AM
both headunits only have 1 ipod plug. The rca's are to hook up amps to the headunit. the more rca's, the more amps you can add without losing sound quality. I have a PS190 and the headunit is installed right behind the passenger into the dash. Its in a waterproof box with a cover. I still use the controls on the headunit to search artists, albums and songs as well as mess with the sound. The remote is for skipping to the next song, muting or raising the volume. Not sure if the 9852 has a wireless remote capability.

caliguy,

My boat came with the head unit cut out in the dash under the mirror. It barely fits, and leaves no room for a box/cover. After ruining two units from water ingestion, I need a different solution before I buy my new system. Is yours cut into the dash with an in-dash cover, or is it mounted on top of the dash with a box covering it?

I think I've seen on a past thread where someone mounted their unit under the front deck (on the floor?) but where the driver can still reach it.

caliguyinTN
10-06-2006, 11:15 AM
caliguy,

My boat came with the head unit cut out in the dash under the mirror. It barely fits, and leaves no room for a box/cover. After ruining two units from water ingestion, I need a different solution before I buy my new system. Is yours cut into the dash with an in-dash cover, or is it mounted on top of the dash with a box covering it?

I think I've seen on a past thread where someone mounted their unit under the front deck (on the floor?) but where the driver can still reach it.

Shep,
mine is cut into the dash under the mirror with a box around it and a plastic cover that closes over the front of the headunit. It is not on top of the dash. I have yet to have water get near the headunit and I'm pretty sure that the cover will block any water. I guess a torrential downpour of rain may be the only time water may be an issue but I dont keep my boat outside when storing. But i understand how buying expensive equipment with the chance of water ruining it. The last time I was at best buy the guy in the stereo area told me if you buy the extended service warranty from them for their speakers it covers water damage for up to three years. I dont know if that applies to headunits but I dont see why it wouldn't.

parks_jr_55
10-06-2006, 11:25 AM
Yes, get the PSP... it is actually 4 years. On the Alpine deck it is like 30 bucks but WORTH it. I see stuff come back and for some people we can't do anything but make them pay for shipping and send it to the company. With the PSP we pay to get it fixed. If we can't (ie. blown speaker or sub) we give you a new one on the spot.

cwright
10-06-2006, 11:26 AM
yet another opinoin in case you haven't had enough,

unless you are blaring tunes from tower speakers with the expectation that you can hear while boarding, you don't need a sub/amp. If your talking entertainment value when you're floating, or idling and not so much at 3200 RPM, I've been real satisfied with Pioneer decks. Less than $200 and I think they have 50 watts per channel, X 4. Buy some good car speakers ($100 per pair type) and your set. I've had mine for 6 years and they were still going strong when I sold that boat. Speaker sound is subjective, so go to the auto stereo store and listen to all the varieties until you find the ones YOU like. Bear in mind most of time your wife will be asking you to turn the stereo down.

A key feature from my perspective is to have a remote control. I wouldn't buy a deck that didn't have one. Allows you to control the deck with out getting up or having to move around people and stuff. Good luck. Sounds like a fun winter project

jraben8
10-06-2006, 11:35 AM
The only amp that I added to a basic 4x50 setup was a powered 8" bazooka tube that is mounted in the storage area. It gives a nice little punch for a 50 watt tube but isn't overpowering in the least. It really helps to make the sound fuller.

I second the remote. I don't have one and wish everyday that I did.

cwright
10-06-2006, 12:36 PM
I am intrigued by your experieince with your 8" Bazooka tube. Might be a good investment. My deck has the amp jack in back, I assume isn't a pretty easy install.

1. how much do they cost?
2. any issues with the alternator, and battery draw, seems like there have been a lot of threads on electrical issues when owners use a amp.

Archimedes
10-06-2006, 12:44 PM
2. any issues with the alternator, and battery draw, seems like there have been a lot of threads on electrical issues when owners use a amp.

I've heard those 'comments' and recommendations on here as well, but I'd really like to hear something specific about this. Before deciding to stay with only one battery for my amp install, I talked to a number of people locally and even got comments on this board, and everyone I talked to told me I would be just fine with one battery as long as I don't run the system for hours and hours without the boat running. I keep hearing people on here saying 'you need to get a second battery or you'll lose power', but I've yet to hear a single person specifically say they couldn't run a simple system with amp with one battery. Even the local marine stereo specialist my dealer uses says there's no need to worry about power draw unless you really load up the system with high power amps and subs and run it for hours with the motor off.

This may be a dump question, but why could I run a similar setup in my car (amp, sub, 8 speakers) for hours and hours with the car off on the same type of battery with no problems, but suddenly it becomes a problem in the boat. Am I missing something?

milkmania
10-06-2006, 01:43 PM
snip*

This may be a dump question, but why could I run a similar setup in my car (amp, sub, 8 speakers) for hours and hours with the car off on the same type of battery with no problems, but suddenly it becomes a problem in the boat. Am I missing something?

ya can't walk on water8p

Archimedes
10-06-2006, 01:51 PM
ya can't walk on water8p

But then I never had to walk with my car because the battery never died. If ya gots a good battery with a good charge on it, I'm at a loss as to why just adding an amp and a couple of extra speakers suddenly overpowers the battery. Again, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying it seems that there's lots of conjecture thrown around on this issue with little evidence. I think it's a huge waste of money, space and weight to throw a second battery in the boat without a real need for it.

shepherd
10-06-2006, 07:57 PM
This is what I was talking about no room on my dash for a head unit AND a cover. I tried and... no way :mad: The cutout for the head unit alone takes up all the height in that space.

Caliguy, were you able to install your stereo box and cover in the same place?

caliguyinTN
10-06-2006, 08:14 PM
This is what I was talking about no room on my dash for a head unit AND a cover. I tried and... no way :mad: The cutout for the head unit alone takes up all the height in that space.

Caliguy, were you able to install your stereo box and cover in the same place?

The cover was already in place in the same place as yours. The previous owner installed it and I replaced the headunit with the Alpine I mentioned before. It looks from the pic that you would have to remove the existing headunit and the casing around it. I'm not sure if it is all one piece. If all the gray around the headunit is attached to the headunit, which I'm assuming is just a front cover piece. Once everything is completely removed from that location, you might cut out the space for the enclosed cover which the new headunit would slide into. Then you brace it behind the headunit with a bracket that screws into the back of the unit and mounts to the inside of the dash.

JimN
10-06-2006, 10:31 PM
Archimedes- one reason there's a difference between the boat and a car is that a lot of cars have alternators that can provide more output (more accessories, therefore, more is needed). When the motor is running, the battery is not the main power source, the alternator is. Also, a car is an enclosed space and you need less power to reach a particular volume level. This means that for any given volume, you're using more power in a boat and there's more current draw. When a battery's voltage drops, the alternator has to work harder to charge it back to a useful level and this generates more heat internally. Heat is the cause of all electrical failures (even with water since a short causes thermal runaway) and the more you can keep things cool, the longer they'll last.

You can use an amp on the stock alternator, just don't use one that draws more than the alternator can put out when there are other devices drawing current at the same time. Your alternator probably puts out 59A and the motor will draw whatever it draws. If the motor is drawing 20A, you can't use an amp that sraws 100A and expect the alternator to last very long. For your use, I would recommend an amp that is highly regulated and a good stereo shop will be able to show you some of these. Efficient (actually sensitive) speakers will give you more output at any given power level, too. to use a typical speaker sensitivity, If you have a speaker that produces 89 db @ 1W and want 109 db, you need to pump 100 W into it. If you can find a speaker that produces 95 db @ 1W, you can use a lower powered amp to get the same output. The 89 db speaker would need 4 watts to get to 95 db and the other one did it with one watt (volume is logorithmic).

Get more sensitive speakers, an amp with a tightly regulated power supply and a battery with a lot of reserve amp/hours and you should be fine if you don't try to recreate Lollapalooza for 9 yours.

Running it at idle won't charge the battery, either.

Archimedes
10-06-2006, 11:01 PM
Good input. I've already got the system in; a JL M6450 amp pushing all six JL speakers and no sub. I'll just keep an eye on the voltmeter the first few times out and see how it responds. We don't run the stereo very loud or very long. The longest I would expect it might be on between runs would be 30 minutes to an hour.

SKI*MC
10-06-2006, 11:15 PM
i am upgrading my deck to Pioneer, they are amazazing!

Monte
10-06-2006, 11:29 PM
I'll just keep an eye on the voltmeter the first few times out and see how it responds. We don't run the stereo very loud or very long. The longest I would expect it might be on between runs would be 30 minutes to an hour.

At least go out and buy a battery jump box... Running out of juice on the boat sucks!! An extra battery will never hurt! Would you rather some toothless wonder in a bayliner drag you in?:rolleyes: Just sayin

Archimedes
10-07-2006, 01:59 AM
At least go out and buy a battery jump box... Running out of juice on the boat sucks!! An extra battery will never hurt! Would you rather some toothless wonder in a bayliner drag you in?:rolleyes: Just sayin

Got one coming, but I doubt I'll keep it in the boat. If I'm gonna do that, I'd just throw a second battery in. I just don't want the extra weight or the loss of space unless it's really necessary. Just adding the amp, tower cans and the lights was enough weight add to depress me.

Again, if I had anyone tell me specifically 'I had a problem running this setup on one battery', I might do something, but so far all I've heard is about friend of friends and 'it's a good idea.' On the contrary, some have said they've run way more power draw on one battery with no problems. Anyone on here actually have their boat fail to start for this reason? I mean I know it would be safer to have two batteries, but I also know it would be safer to wear a helmet when I drive to work and I don't really see the cost benefit of that too clearly either.

Just looking for some info and I do appreciate the comments.

Hell maybe I'll just run the stereo in the driveway for a few hours while I toss the football with my son, then hook up the fake a lake and see if she cranks over.

JohnE
10-07-2006, 07:28 AM
Shep, I had an '89 prostar. It had a '80's cheesy radio with plastic cover on it when I bought it. So I'd say there is room for one. But barely. I replaced it with a clarion deck which was supposed to be weatherproof with no cover needed. The first one died, I assume from water damage, although I don't know for sure. I bought an identical unit and just replaced it. If I kept the boat, I'd have mounted it in the storage area behind observers seat, FWIW. Which I think is what you are considering.

shepherd
10-07-2006, 07:35 AM
Shep, I had an '89 prostar. It had a '80's cheesy radio with plastic cover on it when I bought it. So I'd say there is room for one. But barely. I replaced it with a clarion deck which was supposed to be weatherproof with no cover needed. The first one died, I assume from water damage, although I don't know for sure. I bought an identical unit and just replaced it. If I kept the boat, I'd have mounted it in the storage area behind observers seat, FWIW. Which I think is what you are considering.

Yeah, I'm thinking about maybe getting one of these: http://www.boatersworld.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&productId=13045920

and mounting it under the deck within reach of the driver, or wiring a remote up to the dash.

JohnE
10-07-2006, 08:03 AM
I'd put it behind the observers seat and wire remote to dash. That way you'll have plenty of room to plug in the ipod, and if you add an amp either now or later, it can go there as well.

JimN
10-07-2006, 11:22 AM
"On the contrary, some have said they've run way more power draw on one battery with no problems. Anyone on here actually have their boat fail to start for this reason?"

This happens all the time. You won't know that a problem exists until it shows up and the first things that happen with accessories that draw more than the alternator can handle is that the armature overheats, which transfers to the bearings, and then the rectifier goes out, causing the battery to die while it's sitting. Killing the batttery completely causes the battery to lose about 30% of its storage capacity and happens every time it goes below about 6Vdc. The chemistry of the battery changes and once it gets bad enough, there's no bringing it back.

Another thing that happens when there's not enough charging or storage capacity is that the voltage drops and you will lose performance from anything that draws current. Look at your amp's specs- the power output is rated at a certain voltage and if the voltage drops, the power output does, too. In order to do a particular amount of work, anything that works on electricity will draw current, based on the voltage available. If the voltage drops, the current draw has to increase in order for that device to do the same amount of work. Wires are sized to carry current, based on the system requirements and the length of wire needed. Running higher current through wires causes excessive heat and worst case, fire. I did 12V electronics for a long time (installed audio and/or security in over 7000 vehicles) in addition to servicing boats and have seen a lot of problems caused by running too much equipment on inadequate wiring, bad terminations, alternators and batteries that weren't up to what was being asked of them, etc. Lights are a big current draw and if you really want to see if the alternator will handle it, get an ammeter (borrow one if you don't have one) and clamp it to the positive battery cable, then turn your accessories on, one by one.

"but I also know it would be safer to wear a helmet when I drive to work "

If you ride a bike and can't see the cost benefit, take a header into a curb and it won't matter if you can see the benefit or not, the rest of your family will. If you drive a car or truck here in MKE, you'd think about wearing one, it's like most people here went to the Stevie Wonder School of Driving.

"Hell maybe I'll just run the stereo in the driveway for a few hours while I toss the football with my son, then hook up the fake a lake and see if she cranks over."

I wouldn't crank it for too long- dead/dying batteris is one of the biggest killers of starters, second only to condensation/submerging.

Archimedes
10-07-2006, 12:26 PM
Jim,

Not arguing with you but I continue to question one thing you said

Killing the batttery completely causes the battery to lose about 30% of its storage capacity and happens every time it goes below about 6Vdc. The chemistry of the battery changes and once it gets bad enough, there's no bringing it back.

I understand cranking batteries lose function when they're drained, but if you keep an eye on your voltmeter, how would it ever get down to 6V? If I did kill my battery, I'd switch over to a Blue Top at that point, but if I see my voltmeter dropping much, I'll just shut the stereo down until I'm driving the boat again. If it means anything, my amp recommends a 40-60 amp inline fuse on the power wire.

Oh and my comment about the helmet was in reference to driving a car, not a bike. I never get on a motorcycle without a helmet.

caliguyinTN
10-07-2006, 02:36 PM
You can use an amp on the stock alternator, just don't use one that draws more than the alternator can put out when there are other devices drawing current at the same time. Your alternator probably puts out 59A and the motor will draw whatever it draws. If the motor is drawing 20A, you can't use an amp that sraws 100A and expect the alternator to last very long.


How much can a stock alternator handle? How do I calculate what my sound system, heater, lights and shower draw and then compare that to what my stock alternator can handle? I just put a blue top in last week. Everything seems great. While running at 3200 rpms with the stereo blasting, heater running and lights on, volts dip to about 13.2. I dont want to fry my alternator so how do I figure out if what my amps are drawing is too much for it?

Archimedes
10-07-2006, 02:50 PM
How much can a stock alternator handle? How do I calculate what my sound system, heater, lights and shower draw and then compare that to what my stock alternator can handle? I just put a blue top in last week. Everything seems great. While running at 3200 rpms with the stereo blasting, heater running and lights on, volts dip to about 13.2. I dont want to fry my alternator so how do I figure out if what my amps are drawing is too much for it?

I'm curious about this too. I'd be shocked (and disappointed) if Mastercraft sold their wakeboard boats with alternators that couldn't handle adding an amp and a couple extra speakers. These are wakeboard boats after all and I'll bet 80+% of them wind up with amps added to them. To know this and yet fit them with low power alternators that couldn't handle that would be kinda dumb and not what you expect from a high quality manufacturer like MC. I'm guessing (hoping) that MC understands this and puts an alternator in that's got some headroom in its output.

I'm gonna find out from MC what the rating is on the alternator in my X-1 and then do what Jim said and run an ampmeter to find out what the draw is on my boat. I don't have any other accessories like heater or shower, so it's really just a matter of whether the battery and alternator can handle my amp.

JimN
10-07-2006, 02:57 PM
Archimedes- the fuse is for a worst-case scenario and you can usually assume that an amp is about 50%- 60% efficient, the power that doesn't result in amplification is heat.

Voltage indicated by the gauge shows what is happening with the load being applied at the time. A starter draws anywhere from 150A- 350A, depending on the starter, motor, cables and available voltage or capacity of the battery. The power formula is P=IxE, where Power(Watts or volt-amps) = I(current)xE(voltage). A 150A draw will show a huge voltage drop when it's driven by a battery that is showing 12.65V but if you put a voltmeter on the battery when it's at 8 Vdc, it'll almost go to zero.

You don't want to tax an alternator to its limit for very long and you can still damage a Blue Top. The owner's manual or the Indmar site may have the alternator specs listed. I don't know of a single car or boat maker that ships their vehicles with more than they expect their average customer to use, that's the reason they have upgrades and accessories. The newer boats may have been upgraded to ~70A, but ICBW. No battery lasts forever.

caliguy- don't calculate, measure what they're drawing. It's the only reliable way to get the info you need. A clamp type of ammeter is the only way to measure this and you can check it at the speeds you indicated, with all of the accessories being used.

Archimedes
10-07-2006, 03:04 PM
Archimedes- the fuse is for a worst-case scenario and you can usually assume that an amp is about 50%- 60% efficient, the power that doesn't result in amplification is heat.


That's what I thought, so I'm assuming that my amp actually draws much lower amperage than that fuse rating. So if I have a 70 amp alternator (just checked and it does) and all I'm running is the boat and the stereo, I don't see how I would over tax the alternator. I have no other accessories on the boat, except tower lights, which are solely for nighttime navigation and loading the boat and I won't have the stereo on when I'm doing that.

That said, I am gonna do what you said and check this all out.

caliguyinTN
10-07-2006, 03:06 PM
caliguy- don't calculate, measure what they're drawing. It's the only reliable way to get the info you need. A clamp type of ammeter is the only way to measure this and you can check it at the speeds you indicated, with all of the accessories being used.[/QUOTE]


Okay, i'm not an electrical guy. I just to make sure that when I'm running all of these accessories and stereo that I am 1) not frying my amp and 2) not damaging my battery. So I need to buy a clamp voltmeter. What am I measuring? And once I get a reading, how do I know if this reading is too high/causing damage or just fine and I don't need to worry. I would need explicit directions on how to make sure that I am not going to ruin my alternator with the setup I have. Can anyone help a rookie out with this? Thanks

TX.X-30 fan
10-07-2006, 06:33 PM
I have an 04 x-30 it had a stock 70 amp alt. What you need to know is the draw, with the boat running and all the stereo stuff. The draw with my stock stuff was fairlyclose to the max output of the alt. there were a couple of stock clarion amps i think (not real current beasts). In my opinion if you upgrade much past stock the 70 amp alt. is going to be humping to keep up.All this type stuff has amp hr. ratings, add it all up and see where you are. I purchased a balmar marine system (balmar.net)they were very helpful. Their system consists of alternator(mine was 150 amp), max charge regulater,and xantrex digital echo-charge. The sysyem charges 2 kinnectics agm batteries that run the stereo and only the stereo system. The echo-charger is wired to the stereo batteries and maintains the blue top starter battery (like a trickle charge when it senses a drop). This system allows us to run the
the stereo with the motor off for very long periods of time and never touch the starter battery. ( wife thinks im insane, she's always crankin the stereo though). this system runs 6 amps (2500 watts total) 10 speakers and 2 subs, all jl audio.

Archimedes
10-08-2006, 03:03 PM
I just added the Jl M6450 amp and two tower speakers, and I have no idea what the amp draw is on it. Can't seem to find it in any of the materials. Sounds great though. :D

JimN
10-08-2006, 03:19 PM
Without knowing how much power is being produced, there's no way of putting it in a chart. If you have an oscilloscope, you can see the power output and by checking the voltage drop across the amp's 12V and ground terminals, you can do it but the easy way is still with a clamp style ammeter.

Get your slide rule out, eh?

If you crank it up really loud (never all the way unless the input sensitivity is turned down) and put the voltmeter probes on the battery terminals, comparing the voltage then to the voltage when the stereo is off should show about 11.5 Vdc with the motor off. Running at idle, it should still be above 12Vdc and at 2500RPM or above, it should be over 13Vdc.

In a few other threads, there are instructions for setting the input sensitivity. Turning it up all the way is asking for trouble. Speakers won't last long and there will be various noises (alternator, hiss, buzzing, clicks when switches are moved from ON to OFF and back, etc).

cep89
10-14-2006, 09:20 PM
Go with an IPOD rather than a cd player because the cd players skip too much on our boats.

RexDog1
11-03-2006, 04:24 PM
Has anybody seen the W.A.V.E. system? Good, bad????:confused:

http://ideasthatfloat.com/products.php (http://ideasthatfloat.com/products.php)

shepherd
11-05-2006, 01:49 PM
I got my new Alpine head unit and am still trying to decide where to install it. If I put it under the deck, will a wireless remote work or will I need a wired remote? I believe most (if not all) wireless remotes are "line-of-sight"???

Does Alpine make a wired remote for its head units (it's a CDE-9852)?

JimN
11-05-2006, 02:03 PM
They're all either IR (Infra-Red) or wired. Even IR has problems in bright sunlight, though. Hiding it completely doesn't make it very useable if there's any kine of disc insertion needed but for changer control, it's OK. Why not use a sealed cover?

I don't remember an Alpine unit that used a wired remote.

shepherd
11-05-2006, 02:38 PM
Sealed cover won't fit in my dash. Guess I'll just have to leave it exposed and rig some kind of home-made cover. Here's what my current installation looks like (with my old stereo).

victorff
11-05-2006, 04:00 PM
Shep, The Alpine looks great. I have a Clarion Marine APX480 amp, and the Clarion 10"sub. There yours if you want them.

shepherd
11-05-2006, 07:27 PM
Just sent you a PM Victor!

Hoosier Bob
11-05-2006, 07:45 PM
I have some sick Cerwin Vegas I can sell you cheap! 15" woofer, 6" mid and 1" tweets. I have had them since school but they still rock and you can set your beer on them without a care. They are 90 lbs each so that will add ballast. They should fit where your rear seat was or on the tower. They will add about 4' feet to the height of your tower though.;)

Chief
11-05-2006, 07:53 PM
I have some sick Cerwin Vegas I can sell you cheap! 15" woofer, 6" mid and 1" tweets. I have had them since school but they still rock and you can set your beer on them without a care. They are 90 lbs each so that will add ballast. They should fit where your rear seat was or on the tower. They will add about 4' feet to the height of your tower though.;)

If he wants the four speaker system I have two pioneer speakers that are about the same dimension's and I swear they are 90lbs too. The tweeters are corroded some but still work! I'm a public school guy, but I think that's about an extra 360 lbs of ballast!

Hoosier Bob
11-05-2006, 07:56 PM
If only I could find my dads old QUADROPHONIC amp! Only Quad recording I remember was Barbara Striesand (spelling?).:o

BIGBADBLUE
11-05-2006, 10:28 PM
i would go Kraco all the way :D

holy somkes I am laughing. My dad cleaned out his basement and gave me my old floor nounted Kraco 8 track tape player. It still had a supertramp 8 track in it ... and yes the tape was everywhere in the player ... eaten. I was cracking up.

It was a rock'in system back in my '76 Nova!!!!

victorff
11-05-2006, 11:27 PM
Sent you a PM shep.,and yes they are free.

shepherd
11-18-2006, 08:22 PM
Just got back from SD and the sub and amp were waiting for me. Thanks Victor!!!

Now I have to figure out how to install this stuff (newbie here). Think I'll need a second battery? Can the amp be used for the sub AND the speakers, or sub only? Time to educate myself... :rolleyes:

BriEOD
11-18-2006, 10:19 PM
Sealed cover won't fit in my dash. Guess I'll just have to leave it exposed and rig some kind of home-made cover. Here's what my current installation looks like (with my old stereo).
Sure it will...

victorff
11-18-2006, 11:11 PM
Welcome back. Opinions vary on a secondary battery. I never had a problem. I'd say, upgrade to a stronger Optima battery, carry some jumper cables(just in case),watch your gauges. When it was in my X-9 it was wired to run 4 speakers plus the sub. Just a thought, since you can easily wire in the sub, maybe wire in the 4 speakers first. If you feel you need more thump then do the sub.

shepherd
11-18-2006, 11:24 PM
OK, I'll try just the speakers first. Got 4 good Alpine speakers. I guess I disconnect them from the head unit and wire them to the amp, right?

And can someone explain this to me? I found the manual for this amp online at http://www.clarion.com/us/en/MungoBlobs/818/96/APX480M.pdf. Figure 3 on page 5 shows the power connections: one to remote turn on to the radio (no problem there); the other to ground (OK); the third to the negative post of the battery(???). Shouldn't that third wire go to the positive post?

JimN
11-18-2006, 11:42 PM
Go by what the amp shows. They messed up the diagram.

Depending on where you mount the amp, your power and ground cables will need to be at least 8 ga. Crimp and solder the spade and ring terminals, don't just crimp them or try to stuff the wire under the screws on the amp. If you use butt connectors to extend the speaker wires, squirt a little dielectric grease in each end to keep them from corroding. Otherwise, use 'Heat and seal" connectors. No wire nuts!

You'll need a fuse or circuit breaker within 12" of the battery + post. Yes, the amp has a fuse but this one isn't to save the amp- it's to save you, your passengers and the boat. You don't need one on the negative.

Don't run your low-level signal leads along with your power cables. That's a good way to pick up noise.

Chief
11-18-2006, 11:44 PM
OK, I'll try just the speakers first. Got 4 good Alpine speakers. I guess I disconnect them from the head unit and wire them to the amp, right?

And can someone explain this to me? I found the manual for this amp online at http://www.clarion.com/us/en/MungoBlobs/818/96/APX480M.pdf. Figure 3 on page 5 shows the power connections: one to remote turn on to the radio (no problem there); the other to ground (OK); the third to the negative post of the battery(???). Shouldn't that third wire go to the positive post?

Misprint, yes should go to the positive terminal of the battery. Make sure you put the fuse as close as you can to the post.

victorff
11-18-2006, 11:59 PM
You'll have RCA outputs from the deck(Front,Rear).Connect RCA cables from the deck to the front and rear imputs of the amp. Connect the speakers to the output of the amp. As far as the positive and negative of the battery, you just caught someones mistake. Be sure to have a fuse Between the + of the battery and the amp

454Barefoot
11-19-2006, 06:00 PM
any advice or ideas on a prostar with a tower, what size amp will do the job?

shepherd
11-19-2006, 07:20 PM
Since you guys have been so helpful, couple more questions if you don't mind:

1. If I crank the volume up loud on my head unit (Alpine CDE 9852), the power dies. I guess I'm overloading the circuit? I don't have the amp hooked up yet, just the head unit. Right now my red, yellow and black wires are hooked to the wires coming out of the dash. A friend suggested I hook them directly to the battery (with an inline fuse), i.e., the existing wiring can't handle the load. Comments?

2. Also, I'm looking at my head unit and there are only two RCA output jacks to the amp -- left and right. My amp has 4 channels. Will I be able to power 4 speakers from my amp with only a single left/right output from my head unit? I'm thinking I just plug the left/right into the front left and right inputs on the amp.

JimN
11-19-2006, 07:52 PM
First, you can't turn it all the way up and get good results. It's a lot like going WOT in neutral and waiting for parts to fly through your motor box. They aren't made to go to max volume unless your signal level is really low. The wiring may be fine but the power amp chip will self-protect.

You can use a dual-amp balancer to fade when you only have the two RCA outputs. Any good car stereo shop will have them. That way, you can drive two pairs and have front/rear and left/right control.