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Surfer
09-14-2006, 06:05 PM
Hi,

having a problem, one after a long time.
The boat is MC PS 190 1995 efi.

Day before yesterday some wakesurfing, the engine did behave for some 5 minutes strangely. Kind of cut out, did not take revs as supposed. As there would be water in the tank, cut out in fuel supply, or prop taking contact in the mud, while in gear.

After a while engine ok, and some skiing. Engine was then cut out for a 10 minutes, and since then it has not fired up.

Today some research: fuel pump works, gas reaches injection body, the outside connection. This, I only tried with just turning electricity on, and the pump seems to be working, sounds the same as earlier, gas is coming but not with a high pressure. How much pressure there should be at this time, also is the pressure different when engine is running?

I heard there is a "filter" down in the pump, I will try cleaning that tomorrow, if the pressure would come up again (if that is needed in starting?).

Pump, filters, I would rule out, as gas is coming till injection body. Ok, after I check the pump "filter". I do not know the pressures, but:

So could the problem be in:

the two injectors (,the other of those is changed about 4 years ago, not two of those can break at the same time)?,
injection computer?,
injection relay?,
some electric problem?
Or the injection body, some cleaning to be done.

The gas tank has been pretty empty the whole summer, only 5 gallons at a time for skiing, also the boat has been used less than 10 times. If this has any effect.

Anyway, it was nice to paddle half a mile against the wind with a wakeboard, a surfboad and a small paddle. :rolleyes:

André
09-14-2006, 07:15 PM
There is a screen under the inlet brass fitting at the pump.Mine gets blocked every 2 years.
The fuel filter is after the pump on those engine,great idea...

TMCNo1
09-14-2006, 09:10 PM
Check, clean and or replace all the fuel filters, clean out the fuel tank, fill with new clean gas and a proper dose of Sea Foam. If the boat sits for long periods, I would keep the tank filled up so condensate will not form due to temperature swings and treat gas with StaBil fuel stabalizer.

Surfer
09-15-2006, 03:32 AM
From the Indmar manual (http://www.indmar.com/files/manual/indmar_2001_om.pdf)
I noticed that there are fuses for injectors and for ECM, and fuel pump as well. I will check those today.

Also according to the manual gas stabilizer should be used in the gas if tank is closer to empty than full most of the time. I don't think "bad" gas would have ruined injectors. The gas has been changing once in two weeks approximately.

School Skier
09-15-2006, 07:09 AM
I had a problem like yours it was the gas filter. The quality of gas has gone down over the past few years. When I add gas now I always use stabile no matter what. I also plan to change my gas filter at mid season next year to avoid a problem on the water like I had this year.

JimN
09-15-2006, 08:32 AM
Since you're in Finland, I don't know what they add to the gas but if the tank has been empty or low for most of the summer, I would take a fuel sample first. There is a black cap on a fitting with a Shrader valve (looks like a tire valve) on the fuel line, near the throttle body. If you can get a fuel pressure gauge with a bleeder valve, make sure the motor is off when it's attached. Place a rag or paper towel under the valve (to catch any gas dripping) and screw the hose onto the valve Turn the key to ON and note the pressure, then press the bleeder on the gauge to remove the air in the gauge's hose. Turn the key ON again, noting any pressure difference. Start the motor and make note of the pressure at idle. If the pressure jumps around, the impeller may be bad or there may be a blockage from bad filter(s), clogged fuel pickup tube, clogged vent tube, etc. If you can, have someone else drive the boat so you can check the pressure at 2000 RPM and at WOT. Your pressure should be around 18-20 pounds at all RPM with just a short drop with hard throttle position increase.

While the motor is idling, put the end of the pressure gauge's bleeder line into a clean, clear bottle and press the bleeder valve so you can collect some of the gas. Do this after running the boat on the water or rocking the boat so you cause the gas to slosh in the tank. This will suspend any crud in the gas and you'll either see it immediately as cloudy gas or later as water droplets after the gas sits in the bottle for a while. The water will eventually settle out of cloudy gas and if there's a lot of water in it, you may need to drain the tank (worst case).

When you remove the pressure gauge from the fuel line, make sure the motor is off and you release the pressure in the line. Also, make sure there is a rag or paper towel around the fitting so any gas that sprays is contained and collected.

If it's not too bad and your gas doesn't normally have ethanol in it, you can add some so the water and alcohol can mix and be carried out of the tank by running the motor. Add some fresh gas and this may fix the problem but if the boat isn't run often, add some kind of fuel stabilizer.

JimN
09-15-2006, 08:33 AM
Greg- how are you doing? Do you still have the same boat?

School Skier
09-15-2006, 09:17 AM
Hi Jim,
Yes, we still have the 97 and it's in great shape! We are doing well, hope you are too!

Surfer
09-20-2006, 06:30 AM
Now it seems the problem is in the computer, ECM?

Gas comes to the injection body, also engine gets spark.

Anywhere to find wiring diagram for the ECM, or wiring diagram?

JimN
09-20-2006, 11:27 AM
Look at the fuses on the motor, near the ECM. There are also 3 relays and if the fuel pump fuse or relay are intermittent or completely bad, you won't see fuel. Look for the red wires gong to the relay harnesses and make sure you have 12Vdc on these. The fuel pump relay has a green/white wire and this is where the relay gets the signal form the ECM. This needs to show 12Vdc for 2 seconds when the key is turned ON and continuously when the motor runs or during cranking. There is a MEFI system relay that gets 12Vdc when the key is ON and during cranking. It's wither pink or purple.

Another wire you need to be concerned with is the Tach signal from the Ignition Control (IC) module, which is purple/white. During cranking, you need to see 1-2Vdc with the meter set to DC Volts. If you see nothing, you may have a bad IC module. There is a silicone rubber seal at the back of the 4 wire plug that is attached to the distributor. If you have a T pin, you can insert the end of the pin into the seal and make contact with the terminal on the purple/white wire. Before deciding that the IC module is bad, make sure yo have contact with the terminal. You can trace this wire back to the ECM. Disconnect the battery before removing either of the plugs from the ECM.

André
09-20-2006, 07:22 PM
There is also a ignition breaker on the dashboard.
At least on my 94 TBI...

Surfer
09-21-2006, 08:00 AM
Hi,

I got news from the repairement shop that the problem is the computer.
Scanner did not show any error code.
Engine turns, gets spark, just no fuel from the injectors, so no signal to injectors.

JimN:
I guess the guys at the repairement shop have done what you suggest, but I will confirm that. Thanks!

JimN
09-21-2006, 09:11 AM
You can have them send the ECM to Indmar, too. Have them confirm their findings with Indmar, whether they send it in or not. I would hate to hear that replacement didn't take care of the problem.

Surfer
09-21-2006, 10:17 AM
Just to inform you what has been done.

Mercruiser scanner: no trouble codes.

Injector test gives no pulse to injectors
All + and - cables are checked
Currents have been tested by grounding ecm connector: injector works.
Extra grounding to ecm injector ground connector: does not help.
ECM numbers I got now:

Actual number: 16189069

Barcode number: 869069KA00006992

Somewhere to find a used, working and cheap ecm?

JimN: Indmar to fix the ecm or just replace, and maybe confirm the actual problem in the ecm. Do you think Indmar would investigate this issue? Well, I am interested to hear what's the problem.

JimN
09-21-2006, 10:29 AM
While I have used the Tech 1 to check Mercruiser codes when the motor had a Delphi ECM, I don't know with any accuracy that the Merc diagnostic computer will show/function everything. If it does, it's a good thing for the dealer because they don't need redundant tools, especially at $1000 each.

Indmar will probably as for the checksum from your ECM, which shows up in one of the first few windows.

Did they manually fire the injectors or do a continuity test on the injector leads? I'm not aware that they actually repair the ECMs. I opened one that had stopped functioning the IAC and is has a gelatinous material inside, which I assume is for waterproofing but doesn't seem very conducive to repairs.

I would tell you to try ebay but I'm not sure there will be any out there. Maybe there's a boat salvage place that has some but whatever you get, it will need to be programmed for your boat model/year, etc. If the dealer has the software/hardware (the software requires a specific cable to connect the ECM to a computer for programming), they can get the right program by e-mail if they don't already have it.

Surfer
10-17-2006, 07:11 AM
Indmar will probably as for the checksum from your ECM, which shows up in one of the first few windows.

Unfortunately a chip (for injectors) is already removed from the ECM, and so it is really difficult to try to repair it anymore, as they are "cold joints".

Did they manually fire the injectors or do a continuity test on the injector leads?

Both.


I would tell you to try ebay but I'm not sure there will be any out there. Maybe there's a boat salvage place that has some but whatever you get, it will need to be programmed for your boat model/year, etc.

Maybe you know some boat salvage places?

There is no dealer in Finland, so only way to get the correct box, is to order it from Indmar. Also this kind of issue does not belong to warranty etc. so I wonder if Indmar freely delivers the sw.

If the dealer has the software/hardware (the software requires a specific cable to connect the ECM to a computer for programming), they can get the right program by e-mail if they don't already have it.

Interesting is that if the chips in the ECM are replaceable? And where from to get info on Delphi computers and the components?

Surfer
10-17-2006, 07:11 AM
Indmar will probably as for the checksum from your ECM, which shows up in one of the first few windows.

Unfortunately a chip (for injectors) is already removed from the ECM, and so it is really difficult to try to repair it anymore, as they are "cold joints".

Did they manually fire the injectors or do a continuity test on the injector leads?

Both.


I would tell you to try ebay but I'm not sure there will be any out there. Maybe there's a boat salvage place that has some but whatever you get, it will need to be programmed for your boat model/year, etc.

Maybe you know some boat salvage places?

There is no dealer in Finland, so only way to get the correct box, is to order it from Indmar. Also this kind of issue does not belong to warranty etc. so I wonder if Indmar freely delivers the sw.

If the dealer has the software/hardware (the software requires a specific cable to connect the ECM to a computer for programming), they can get the right program by e-mail if they don't already have it.

Interesting is that if the chips in the ECM are replaceable? And where from to get info on Delphi computers and the components?

JimN
10-17-2006, 08:30 AM
The ECM for marine isn't like the ones in cars and trucks. These are sealed and there is no small panel that is removed to change a chip. The ones in boats are electronically updated.

"Unfortunately a chip (for injectors) is already removed from the ECM, and so it is really difficult to try to repair it anymore, as they are "cold joints"."

Does this mean that the dealer removed something from the ECM? Unless they know exactly what they're doing, I wouldn't recommend this.

"Interesting is that if the chips in the ECM are replaceable? And where from to get info on Delphi computers and the components?"

As I said, the ECM is not made to be serviced because they are sealed at the end of production to keep moisture out. Breaking this seal can cause it to leak and fail. It's not practical to replace the chips unless someone has access to the correct method of removing the IC, re-soldering the new one, testing and sealing it.

You may be able to get a new ECM or have yours tested by contacting a MasterCraft dealer. I don't know what the shipping costs would be, but Indmar isn't the only source for them. If you get it from a dealer or Indmar, they will need the ECM serial number, the motor model and serial number and the hull number. This ensures that the program is correct for your boat.

Surfer
05-04-2007, 06:31 AM
Hi,

do you think there is any precaution issues to do before installing the new ECM?

Is there anything to measure, volts, or anything to do, before installing the new ECM? Just to verify that something external does not break the new ECM?

The troubleshooting result, with measuring all the wires plus and minus, which shows that the problem is in the ECM tells enough?

JimN
05-04-2007, 08:58 AM
To go with the PM, if the injectors aren't firing, a noid light will tell if the feed/ground are good. There is also a fuse for the fuel system. In addition, injectors can be made to fire manually.