View Full Version : You are all under arrest!
Court ruling makes boating illegal in much of U.S.
The Marine Retailers Association of America is alerting its dealer members to a court ruling that some say could have serious consequences for boating.
Judge Robert G. James of the U.S. District Court, Western Division of Louisiana, has declared it is a criminal trespass for the public to boat, fish or hunt on the Mississippi River and other navigable waters of the country.
"Even though this action seems like a horrible pre-April Fools’ joke, it is very serious," said MRAA president Phil Keeter, in a statement. "Because essentially all the waters and waterways of our country are considered navigable in the U.S. law, this ruling declares recreational boating, water skiing, fishing, waterfowl hunting and fishing tournaments – except if conducted in a navigable shipping channel — to be illegal and the public subject to jail sentences for recreating with their families."
In addition, the judge held that federal law grants exclusive and private control over the waters of the river, outside the main shipping channel, to riparian landowners. The shallows of the navigable waters are no longer open to the public, the MRAA reports, adding, “Boating has now become illegal in most of our country.”
In the Aug. 29 decision, Judge James rejected the findings of the magistrate judge who found earlier that the public had the right under federal law and Louisiana law to navigate, boat, fish and hunt on the waters of the Mississippi River up the normal high-water line of the river.
In that ruling, MRAA says Magistrate Judge James Kirk relied on long-established federal principles of navigation entitling "the public to the reasonable use of navigable waters for all legitimate purposes of travel or transportation, for boating, sailing for pleasure, as well as for carrying persons or property for hire, and in any kind of watercraft, the use of which is consistent with others also enjoying the right possessed in common."
"MRAA is working with the Coast Guard, state boating law administrators, and NMMA ... to fight this onerous ruling," said MRAA chairman Glenn Mazzella, in a statement.
(plagiarized from Trade Only 9/13/06)
SkiDog
09-13-2006, 03:37 PM
What in the F--- is this world coming to? This is NOT Iraq! Aren't we supposed to be free? I'll bet a hundred this guy is a democrat!:mad:
92 190 PS
09-13-2006, 03:38 PM
This guy is a quack. Sounds like we all need to contact our local political representatives and start having some fun with this one....
Tryin-again
09-13-2006, 03:42 PM
I have been wonderin' when navagable water laws were going to become challenged....
As an owner of a couple of miles of river front property which isn't actually navagable - but can be considered public. we have been watching this stuff....
I will say it is a big can of worms and the lawyers whille jump in with both feet (NOT meant to offend any lawyers who might frequent this board)....
They will be able to fight these cases - for both sides for years to come..... and we all know fighting means $$$$ to lawyers..
:mad:
pilot02
09-13-2006, 03:45 PM
Ya gotta catch me first!
east tx skier
09-13-2006, 03:48 PM
Ya gotta catch me first!
That's right! We can see Louisiana from our dock. Time to test the law like a real American hero!
92 190 PS
09-13-2006, 03:51 PM
That's right! We can see Louisiana from our dock. Time to test the law like a real American hero!
Go for it East you're one of the few on this board that can defend yourself against this crap....
Let me guess- this guy just got splashed last weekend and he's all PO'd. He probably just bought a waterfront home and expected it to be totally quiet, too.
"I JUST WANT SOME PEACE AND QUIET!!!!"
"OK, I'll be quiet".
"And I'll be peace".
Name that movie.
Archimedes
09-13-2006, 03:57 PM
As they say, they can have my boat when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
This was clearly a local issue that had national implications that either nobody involved forsaw or that they wanted to proceed in order to test statutes and get this issue resolved at a higher level. Congress would step in with a federal law overriding this before anything like this caused any real disruption nationally. Plus the state and local agencies not only don't have the manpower for enforcement, they count on the revenue generated by recreational boaters and wouldn't be excited about losing it.
Also, how do you define a navigable shipping lane? Would any salt water bay or inland waterway be considered a navigable shipping lane, while inland lakes and rivers would not? If we place a party barge with a few cargo containers on it and run it back and forth across the lake once a month, would it then constitute a shipping lane?
Archimedes
09-13-2006, 03:58 PM
Let me guess- this guy just got splashed last weekend and he's all PO'd. He probably just bought a waterfront home and expected it to be totally quiet, too.
"I JUST WANT SOME PEACE AND QUIET!!!!"
"OK, I'll be quiet".
"And I'll be peace".
Name that movie.
Could it be MASH?
RickDV
09-13-2006, 04:02 PM
There is a more detailed account of the judge's ruling in the Louisiana Sportsman (http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=213). Apparently the judge ruled that fishing and hunting was not allowed, but his ruling does not prohibit other boating.
A quote from the article:
“I’m not a lawyer … but the judge seems to be saying that the public has the right to navigate up to the high-water mark but not to fish,” Hilzim said. “The judge has basically said you can take your fast boat to the high-water mark, but you can’t fish.
“You and I can take our speed boat or pontoon boat and drive around all we want, but we can’t fish.”
Whew! That's good news for MC owners (at least most of us) who do not fish or hunt from their MasterCrafts.
92 190 PS
09-13-2006, 04:06 PM
This might change my plans for the rod holders, trolling motor and built in tackle box I was going to put in the 190 this winter.....
JohnnyB
09-13-2006, 04:09 PM
All I read into this ruling is that is a continued change in the saga of trespassing vs. not trespassing along the shoreline......
Sometimes this rule reads that you are not trespassing if you are below the high water mark of a nagivable body of water and sometimes it reads you are not trespassing only if your feet are wet (i.e. in the waterway at its current level). This typically pertains to fisherman and hunters who hunt waterways.
The regulations regarding what constitutes trespassing seem to change between these two scenarios every year....
east tx skier
09-13-2006, 04:13 PM
Looks like the Mississippi River was flooding pretty regularly on some farm land and the bass boats were heading over the land. Looks like we could ski it though (unless that's considered trolling).
Strange that I can't find a link to the opinion anywhere? Anybody know of one. On the Federal side of things, trial court judges will often issue a written opinion.
What in the F--- is this world coming to? This is NOT Iraq! Aren't we supposed to be free? I'll bet a hundred this guy is a democrat!:mad:
you are free to do as your government tells you to do!
you are free to do as your government tells you to do!
"People should not fear their goverment, goverments should fear their people. Remember, remember the 5th of November..."
east tx skier
09-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Unfortunately in this case, Federal Judges are appointed for life. Not much that can be done about this guy come November.
Big Govt. seems to have become awfully popular lately regardless of party affiliation.
Unfortunately in this case, Federal Judges are appointed for life. Not much that can be done about this guy come November.
Big Govt. seems to have become awfully popular lately regardless of party affiliation.
I was referring to Guy Fawkes...
In 1605, thirteen young men planned to blow up
the Houses of Parliament. Among them was
Guy Fawkes, Britain's most notorious traitor.
After Queen Elizabeth I died in 1603, English Catholics who had been persecuted under her rule had hoped that her successor, James I, would be more tolerant of their religion. James I had, after all, had a Catholic mother. Unfortunately, James did not turn out to be more tolerant than Elizabeth and a number of young men, 13 to be exact, decided that violent action was the answer.
(Surprised you missed this movie quote Doug)
east tx skier
09-13-2006, 05:07 PM
I was referring to Guy Fawkes...
In 1605, thirteen young men planned to blow up
the Houses of Parliament. Among them was
Guy Fawkes, Britain's most notorious traitor.
After Queen Elizabeth I died in 1603, English Catholics who had been persecuted under her rule had hoped that her successor, James I, would be more tolerant of their religion. James I had, after all, had a Catholic mother. Unfortunately, James did not turn out to be more tolerant than Elizabeth and a number of young men, 13 to be exact, decided that violent action was the answer.
(Surprised you missed this movie quote Doug)
Color me stumped!
http://www.shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_dan/The_More_You_Know.jpg
M-Funf
09-13-2006, 05:18 PM
"...Judge James Kirk..."
Is that James "T" Kirk????
http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200307/kirk01/200x150.jpg
east tx skier
09-13-2006, 05:40 PM
That's Judge Robert James
M-Funf
09-13-2006, 05:47 PM
...In that ruling, MRAA says Magistrate Judge James Kirk relied on long-established federal principles of navigation entitling "the public to the reasonable use of navigable waters for all legitimate purposes of travel or transportation, for boating, sailing for pleasure, as well as for carrying persons or property for hire, and in any kind of watercraft, the use of which is consistent with others also enjoying the right possessed in common."...
Naw, the first Magistrate...8p
rcnjson
09-13-2006, 05:52 PM
Let me guess- this guy just got splashed last weekend and he's all PO'd. He probably just bought a waterfront home and expected it to be totally quiet, too.
"I JUST WANT SOME PEACE AND QUIET!!!!"
"OK, I'll be quiet".
"And I'll be peace".
Name that movie.
"What About Bob"
what did I win?
k
TMCNo1
09-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Let me be the first to test the law, if it's for real and enforceable. I'll take a bullet for the whole group. Would that make me a Mastercraft marter? Where do I sign up, cause I want all those virgins in a '07 TT #101 of 100!
PendO
09-13-2006, 08:34 PM
.................................................
This will never fly if it's based on political party affiliation. There are tons of Demorats who have boats.
KnoxX2
09-13-2006, 08:49 PM
What a Joke!
I say Good luck enforcing that
Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-13-2006, 09:13 PM
What a Joke!
I say Good luck enforcing that
TRU DAT!
This is the BIGGEST load of bull I have EVER seen! If anyone really believes that this will become reality, you need to relax, and that is coming from someone as OCD as ME!:D Think about it, can you imagine what would happen in this country if boating were actaully outlawed? :rolleyes:
Like any law officers would enforce this.....:rolleyes:
Gimme a break.....:rolleyes:
bradamerry
09-13-2006, 09:15 PM
they will have a hard time making this stick.. I might better put a speed prop on that new boat..
east tx skier
09-14-2006, 10:49 AM
LOL! I was thinking about the fact that Brad, in LA, just bought a fishing boat!
funny I was hassled just yesterday at my ski lake for having a little fun with the ol 9mm...
Every evening we ski, we hear gun nuts out shooting til their deaf, and last night we pop off 15 rounds at dark for fun (yes I still have the 15 round clips!) and some dude hassles me a half hour later at my gate for "shooting guns in the middle of the night" hahhahah he didn't hang around to discuss it with me though!
sorry for the jack. this thread got me thinking of others namby pamby opinions of our fun!
Hey was this judge making this ruling in the name of homeland security or something? Surely not for property rights of any kind :rolleyes:
shepherd
09-14-2006, 11:53 AM
Interesting. Florida has a law that makes it a crime to interfere with a fisherman's lawful taking of fish from state waters: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=fishing+and+interfere&URL=CH0372/Sec705.HTM
Wonder what the judge would think of that!
east tx skier
09-14-2006, 11:54 AM
funny I was hassled just yesterday at my ski lake for having a little fun with the ol 9mm...
Hey, I've got guns and all (and pre-ban clips, too), but dude???!!?
Say it with me, "This is my rifle, this is my gun! This is for fighting, this is for fun!"
Hey, I've got guns and all (and pre-ban clips, too), but dude???!!?
Say it with me, "This is my rifle, this is my gun! This is for fighting, this is for fun!" hah! well it was fun while it lasted.
east tx skier
09-14-2006, 12:10 PM
To quote another movie, that's not a clip. That's a clip [holds up 40 capacity magazine to Mini 14].
TMCNo1
09-14-2006, 12:10 PM
Somewhat of a related threadjack.........
I went to the restaurant one morning after a encounter with a tree limb. The guys asked what happened to my face? I told them, "It was MY wife, MY woodpile and HER piece of firewood, don't ask! I try not to upset HER often!
"This is Christine, this is my rifle. There are many others like it, but this one is mine."
The judge in this debacle has clearly not thought out the whole scenario. He wants to kill an entire multi-multi-billion dollar industry, as well as all of the suppliers to that industry, all of its employees, the associated real estate requirements for the manufacturing, distribution, retailers, storage, etc, the tax base created by it and the insurance industry's loss of business. This doesn't even include all of the PO'd boat owners who'll be driving with his picture on their dashboard, just waiting to see him. If he considers all interconnected navigable waterways, that's one thing. If he tries to include all water with personal real estate attached, there's no way this will fly. One guy wants to cause more than 100K workers to lose their jobs? What about all of the investment in the skills for these people (OK, you got me on this one), what will be done with all of the boats that can't be used- are we going to sell them to people in other countries?
This guy is a freakin' tool!
Is he trying to commit "suicide by national concensus"?
He's in deep if he ever goes to Texas, where "He needed killin' " is a legal defense for murder. Help me out on this Doug.
Issue Date: 9/14/2006, Posted On: 9/14/2006
Lawyer will appeal Mississippi River ruling
A lawyer in Louisiana plans to appeal a federal court ruling that his clients do not have the right to fish and hunt on the floodwaters of the Mississippi River.
At issue is whether the flooded area along the banks of the Mississippi becomes part of the navigable river, or if the area belongs to the property owner who owns the muddy land beneath it.
Paul Hurd, who represents six anglers arrested for criminal trespassing, filed a civil suit against the sheriff, claiming the arrest was made without probable cause.
He says the Aug. 29 ruling in the case makes it criminal trespassing for the public to boat, fish or hunt on the river unless conducted within the main channel of the river, or with permission of riparian land owners.
He says the ruling, if upheld, should send shudders throughout the country because it opens the door to the possibility that recreational boating and fishing can be prohibited on navigable waterways outside of the channel.
Hurd even sent out an alert to marine industry leaders warning of the implications of the judge’s decision.
The ruling, however, does not go that far. In his Aug. 29 decision, Judge Robert James said federal law does not give the anglers a right to fish or hunt on navigable water, such as the Mississippi River, “when those waters periodically flood privately owned lands.”
The judge says the land, because it is on the banks of the river, is subject to public use.
“Such public use, however, is limited to activities that are incidental to the navigable character of the Mississippi River and its enjoyment as an avenue of commerce. The court finds that fishing and hunting are not included in those rights,” James writes in his ruling.
He further ruled that Sheriff Mark Shumate had probable cause to arrest the anglers.
Attorneys for the sheriff declined to comment.
The issue has been debated for years in East Carroll Parish, a small district of some 10,000 people. Walker Cottonwood Farms, a company that owns land along the river bank, says the area where the fishermen were arrested is actually floodwater, and not part of the normal flow of the river. The company several years ago filed suit against the sheriff’s office, requesting that authorities arrest trespassers. A state court agreed that the area is dry for most of the year, and thus not navigable in law.
Hurd maintains the area should be considered the high-water mark as part of the natural ebb and flow of the river. Hurd, a one-man attorney practice, says the recent ruling will “shut down” the bass fishing and duck hunting industries in the state.
Another hearing with Judge James is slated for November. Hurd also plans to appeal to a higher federal court, the 5th District which encompasses Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas.
-- JoAnn W. Goddard
Jeff Lyman
09-14-2006, 07:55 PM
I'm looking at a 88 prostar with a power slot what is it? Could I install a new GM High Performance Fuel injected 350 ci. in the boat? I'm new to ski boats can ya tell.
Thanks guys.
Archimedes
09-14-2006, 07:57 PM
I'm looking at a 88 prostar with a power slot what is it? Could I install a new GM High Performance Fuel injected 350 ci. in the boat? I'm new to ski boats can ya tell.
Thanks guys.
Welcome. You'll have better luck if you start a new thread with this topic. It'll get more attention and more responses than if it's buried in this thread.
bamboo
09-17-2006, 08:58 PM
[QUOTE=east tx skier]Hey, I've got guns and all (and pre-ban clips, too), but dude???!!?
No flames or anything but the federal weapons ban sunset in 2004! :) I guess you might have a l ocal or statewide ban.
Either or, I wouldn't be firing off rounds in my lake. That's just asking for trouble..... I guess if it's a bigger lake or something....