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PeteS
11-23-2004, 12:38 PM
After months of thought, I've decieded to have my carb rebuilt by the experts rather than trying to do it myself. I have to mail it in, and was wondering if anyone had any advice for the removal.

Is it as simple as removing the hoses leading in and out, and unbolting the assembly? Is there anything I should be aware of when removing or shipping? Thanks in advanced for any help provided.

Thanks,
Pete

BrianM
11-23-2004, 01:31 PM
Yep it is that simple. Remove the fuel line the power to the choke the throttle linkage and whatever other lines are there (can't really remember). Remove the four nuts from the base and your done. Maybe a 10 minute job. Make sure you drain the bowls after it is removed so you don't ship a maltaf(sp?) cocktail.

As far as packing don't use styrofoam peanuts. Any gas residue will turn the styrofoam into a sticky mess. I would just find an appropriately sized box and pack with newspaper.

ski_500
11-23-2004, 02:14 PM
I guess you have some off-season time to get your carb rebuilt, where are you having the work done? I had to rebuild mine two years ago, but I did it the hard way... bit-by-bit. The whole adventure took a huge bite out of the season, It seemed like two months before I got the thing running right. It started with a leaking accelerator pump, and every time I repalced one gasket/seal, another one went bad. And none of the main parts stores I normally use ever had the stuff I needed.(this was before I found SKIDIM) The last item I had to find was a gasket set for the meter block... The only place in the town that carried these gaskets turned out to be a Mom & Pop speed shop (drag racers!). Don't you know that when I went there to pick-up the parts, they had a big sign on the service counter advertising re-builds for Holley Carbs. If only I had known...
good luck.

PeteS
11-23-2004, 05:03 PM
Thanks a million guys for the valuable information! I'll be sure to use newspaper to pack, and drain the gas. I found a shop on the internet out in California that will do it for $150.00. Sounds like a good deal compared to the hours of intricate labor I would have seen. Tough break on your experience of your carb, hopefully it is running OK for you now. Thanks again.

Ron Grover
11-23-2004, 05:21 PM
Had Holley do mine sent it right back to factory. Came out great they only took 2 weeks but cost was about $300.

Simple removal but be sure to put gasket between intake and carb on right. It is real easy to get turned arounded. Will fit both ways and inlets are not that different in size. (experience)

Lance
11-23-2004, 07:06 PM
I rebuilt my carburetor several years ago and found the experience to be quite enjoyable and only took a couple of hours. I would recommend it to anyone that has a little time to tinker because it forces you to learn a little about the theory of the various elements that all come together to make these things work under the various conditions they see.

Now that I think about it, I guess the 'couple of hours' doesn't count the half dozen hours or so that I spent doing research prior to the actual rebuild.

Now that I think of it and recognize that I did this prior to wife and kids... maybe $150 isn't so bad given that I have other honey-do lists.

Good luck with it. Curious though... what problem(s) are you trying to solve with the rebuild (maybe this was addressed in another thread)??

Lance

André
11-23-2004, 07:47 PM
150 $ is half the price of a NEW carb.Also cost only one way shipping.If you have any problem after the rebuilt,the "down" time is realy worth the other half.
Some thing to think about...Ask Doug
:twocents:

JimN
11-23-2004, 07:56 PM
When the carb is shipped, make sure it's empty and as dry as possible. Put it in a heavy plastic bag and seal it. Nobody will ship something that they know has gas in it. If they can't smell it, they won't know it has any gas. Wrap it to make sure the corners and any other sharp areas can't puncture the plastic bag, too.

PeteS
11-24-2004, 09:58 AM
Thanks for the information, Ron!

To answer your question, Lance. For some reason it appears that the secondaries are sticking or having trouble opening and closing. Right around 31, it'll hold until you give it more throttle than necessary to get to 32, then the boat speed will jump up to about 35. Hitting that 32-33 MPH point is next to impossible. As a side note, I'm installing PerfectPass this winter as well, don't know if that'll change anything with the problem.

Now, I've heard that there are springs that I can replace or adjust, and that would be a good option, but I figured that since the carb now has about 300 hours on it without any service, that maybe now would be a good time to have a rebuild done as sort of PM. Looking forward to your thoughts.

You raise a good point, Andre. Where could I find the $300.00 new carb? I'm seeing a new one at DIM for about $500.00 and a rebuilt one there as well for $350.00. If I can find a new 4160 for the price you mentioned that may be a great option. Thanks a million guys.

Thrall
11-24-2004, 03:06 PM
PeteS, There's a guy on the other Carb thread under this one who has a new 4160 for sale $200.

PeteS
11-24-2004, 03:39 PM
Thanks for the heads up, Thrall. I PM'ed him and am still waiting to hear back. He's about 10 miles from me as well, which is surprising. Thanks again.

André
11-24-2004, 08:01 PM
Pete
PM East Texas Skier as well and ask him where he bought his carb and how much.I remember something around 300 $ ±.
Sorry if i mislead you...

Lance
11-24-2004, 09:41 PM
Interesting that your secondaries are sticking. That was actually one of the reasons I rebuilt mine. The guy that owned my 87Prostar before me had disconnected the secondaries (slipped the little actuator off the butterfly) because he had a tough time keeping a steady speed at slalom speeds because that is right in the range where the secondaries are openning. I left it that way for awhile but when I hooked it back up there was enough gunk in there that the vacuum actuator couldn't overcome the resistance. Probably better fuel economy when the secondaries don't open but also not as good of a hole shot. I grew up skiing behind small outboards so I could get buy without the acceleration.

I had other problems as well that were largely due to not using the boat for a couple of years. Rebuilding resolved all of the problems (the biggest problem was actually that the nozzle for the accelerator pump outlet where clogged which in hindsight would not have required a rebuild).

Good luck on whichever route you chose and I hope you solve the surging problem. I don't have perfect pass but my guess is that if you are having problems with sticking secondaries the perfect pass wouldn't be able to compensate quickly enough but I could be wrong.

Lance

jimmer2880
11-25-2004, 01:29 PM
I've heard that in a Slalom boat, mechanical secondaries are much more reliable & "ski'able"....


just something else to think about.

sic0048
12-03-2004, 12:40 PM
PeteS - you might just deconnect the secondaries and see how it does. It will loose some top end, but will probably make for a much more consistant 32-34 mph range. Even with Perfect Pass, you occationally need to do this. It really just depends on the boat where the secondaries really kick in.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 12:43 PM
PeteS, you've got mail. $319 plus $10 for a new fuel line (I went from dual to single feed) last May or so. It was brand new, but on special. www.skidim.com. Getting more speed at fewer RPMs.

PeteS
12-03-2004, 01:52 PM
Brian,

Thanks for the info, sounds like disconnecting the secondaries may be a good way to go. I'm going to be putting in Perfect Pass this winter, and if PP like's it better with them disconnected than I'll do it for sure. How do you go about doing it?

Thanks,
Pete

PeteS
12-03-2004, 01:55 PM
You got an amazing deal, Tex! Now they want $499.00 for a new one, and $352.00 for a rebuilt carb. Congrats on the new carb, glad to hear you like it. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Here are the options: disconnect the secondaries on my current carb for slalom, buy a used 4160 for $200.00 that will most likely make my boat run a little rich, or get a rebuild done on my current carb for $200.00. Will the rebuild solve my problem with the secondaries, if there even is a problem?

Thanks,
Pete

BrianM
12-03-2004, 02:28 PM
Why would a used 4160 make your boat run rich? That should be the carb that is on it now. I would buy the nearly new /used 4160 slap it on and all of you problems should be solved. If you don't like that option have it rebuilt. No need to pay $500 for a new one. Just my $.02

As for your problem. I have the exact same boat that you do. I have the stock 4160 and have zero problems with holding speed at any mph. I ski the course at 36 all of my ski partners ski at 34 my wife skis at 28 and early in the season I was starting my passes at 32. Never a problem with the secondaries doing strange things. In fact my ski partners don't mind driving my boat (even without perfect pass) because it holds speed so well. When I am skiing they just lock the rpms in at a needle over 3400 before the pre-gates take their hand of the throttle and the boat holds speed great. The speed comes down a bit with a hard pull but catches right back up. Same when I am driving them but just a needle over 3200 for 34.

Guess what I am saying is you shouldn't have to disconnect anything to get a steady pull with the boat but you definately need a rebuild.

BrianM
12-03-2004, 02:36 PM
Pete,

Just noticed that you are rinning an Acme 13x12. That may be why the secondaries are giving you a bit of a fit. Having to spin more rpm for the same speed could be putting you more on the edge with the secondaries opening and closing.

By the way how do you like the prop on the the boat? I was contemplating going to the 13x12.5 Acme and still might but Perfect Pass comes first. The guy at Acme had reccomended either the 13x12 or 13x12.5 to me. I just thought the 13x12 just might spin a little too fast. I do a little footing and don't want to loose off of the top end. Now seeing that your prop could possibly (and I am just guessing here) be causing a few issues with the secondaries at slalom speed I think if I do make the change from my stock 13x13 I will go with the 12.5. Would be interested in any and all observations about the prop.

PeteS
12-03-2004, 02:50 PM
Great points/questions, Brian. Reason for the boat running rich on the new 4160 that I found for $200.00 is because it's a different 4160 than you and I have. Remember when I asked you to get the carb number off your boat for me? That's because I need to call Holley to find out what the exact differences are and how it will run on our boats, appearently it has a different power valve and larger jets -- it'd use a lot of gas. Maybe a straight rebuild will be the way to go.

Secondly, I really like my Acne. It is as smooth of a prop as I've ever felt, the hole shot is terrific, and the speed is steady. You are right, there is a little loss on the top end. More importantly, I'm really concerend that if I was BACK running the stock 13x13, the secondaries would be kicking in around 40, not 32-34. Eliminating my problem completely. I still have the 13x13, should it go back on? When you ski on Saturday, could you play around with your boat a little a let me know when you think your secondaries are kicking in?

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 02:54 PM
I'm running an Acme 13x12 with a 4160 and I've never had a problem with holding speed (with or without perfect pass). Of course, I'm running the 351 HO.

PeteS
12-03-2004, 03:03 PM
After discussing my boat and what I like to do behind it with Acme, I was told when I purchased the prop, that my boat would have a better hole shot but the same top end. My top end seems a little slow -- 40 mph or so.

My boat holds the speed great anywhere but between 31-34 -- right where I need it to.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 03:11 PM
That's exactly what they told me. I'm getting 45.5 mph by GPS at 4600 RPM as a rough top end. This is exactly what I got with the 13x13 OJ, but the hole shot is a bit better.

PeteS
12-03-2004, 03:14 PM
Now this is starting to look more and more like a carburator issue -- which is a relief. What to do about it? I haven't a clue.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 03:22 PM
If you have a 4160, I'd just do a rebuild. The kits are inexpensive and the labor isn't too terrible. Inititally, I was thinking that the reason my boat doesn't have a problem with the constant pull might be the extra horses, but if Brian's not seeing the issue, then that can't be it. All perfect pass does is hold RPM. So presuming you're not having a throttle return issue, I can't imagine it making a difference. I was under the impression that my secondaries were opening up when I was accellerating, but as to what the triggering mechanism for their doing so, I haven't the foggiest.

Long story short, if you have a 4160, getting it rebuild is the exact same thing as buying a rebuilt carb. Those carbs are, from everything I've read (and I pondered getting one for a year), really reliable. Getting rebuilt is like getting a new carb.

BrianM
12-03-2004, 03:24 PM
The more I read these posts the more I think you may be having a prop issue rather than a carb issue. What rpms are you spinnig at say 36mph? With just a driver and a skier I am durning just a hair over 3400. It sounds like going to the 13x12 changed the rpms so that the secondaries are opening at a very inopertune(sp?) time, ie right at slalom speeds thus giving you the symptoms that you are having. Was the boat doing this before you went to the new prop? If it was then my theory is wrong but if it wasn't I think the prop is the problem, not the carb.


EastTX doesn't have any problems with his but he has three major differences. 1. It is not the same hull (205 vs 190) 2. He has the HO 351 which if I remember correctly has 40hp more. 3. He is running the 13 x 12.5

What is your main application? Slalom, wakeboarding, an even mix?

I will play with mine a bit tomorrow and report back to you on what I find. I am thinking that the secondaries open around 3700 rpm which is about 38mph or so but I will check. It just seems like you might be looking at trading Acme for a 13x12.5 rather than a carb rebuild.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 03:34 PM
Brian, I misspoke and I edited my post. I'm running a 13x12 (Farmer Ted runs the 12.5 if I'm not mistaken). With the OJ 13x13, I was getting 36 mph at 3475 RPM. Now I get 36 at 3450. Both speed/rpm combos are driver and skier only. My boat (93 205) has about 100 pounds on the 93 190, which also has a different hull from the 88, but the weight probably didn't vary too much. The hull differences between the boats are different, but not by much. You're right, it might be the horsepower, but it sounds like you and I are getting 36 at roughly the same revs. Of course, Pete was saying skiing speeds of 31 mph. But I'm not seeing those issues at that speed either.

Part of Acme's rationale behind dropping pitch is their claim that the CNC'd prop is simply more efficient.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 03:39 PM
I'm getting a little confused. Sorry. I got 3475 with the acme to get 36. With the new carb and the acme, I get 36 at 3450. I think the OJ and the Acme didn't vary my rev/speed ratio at all if memory serves. The lower revs for same speed came with the carb switch.

BrianM
12-03-2004, 03:55 PM
If Petes numbers are simalar to EastTX then I am completely wrong about the prop thing. If so then I go back to my opinion of just having the carb rebuilt for $150.

EastTX your numbers are very interesting. I would think that you would see quite an increase in RPM for a given speed dropping to the 13x12. I guess that just shows how different the Acmes are from other props.

east tx skier
12-03-2004, 04:08 PM
That's what they say. It's a matter of efficiency (according to them). Dropping the pitch should, in theory, increase your hole shot, but cause you to lose a little top end. But in the case of a CNC'd prop, you don't lose that top end. This is what they claim, and this is my experience. Pretty nifty.

PeteS
12-03-2004, 04:48 PM
Such valuable information! Brian and Tex: Thanks a million. The diagnosis would have taken me hours, and wouldn't have happened until next spring.

Here is my conclusion: According to the information Acme provided before purchase and Tex's knowledge, the relationship between engine revs and boat speed doesn't change much with the addition of an Acme 13 x 12. Which in the defense of Brian, I agree sounds very strange.

My secondaries are opening prematurely (for lack of a better word), probably around 3,100 RPM's or so. They should be opening around 3,700 RPM like you said, Brian. Indirectly, my top speed only being around 40 MPH could also be related to the carb's malfunction. Agreed? Thanks once again, fellas. I owe you one.

Storm861triple
12-03-2004, 10:56 PM
I think 3100 is fine for your secondaries to START opening. Your engine certainly has enought RPM and carb velocity at that speed to make good use of the added air and fuel.

As for your top speed...

"Indirectly, my top speed only being around 40 MPH could also be related to the carb's malfunction."

...Which malfunction? The opening of the secondaries? As long as your secondaries are opening all the way at WOT by about 3800 RPM, then that isn't holding you back at all.

east tx skier
12-06-2004, 11:45 AM
Pete, I'm going to throw another thought in here. To iterate your original problem, your boat isn't holding speed at around 31 mph (or 3100 RPM). Is it surging, stumbling, or both? If it's stumbling, maybe it's a fuel system issue apart from your carb. How much variance in speed are we talking about here? If it's 50 RPMs, that wouldn't surprise me much. Even with Perfect Pass, when you pull a skier, you'll see it dip and rise by 25 to 50 rpms from time to time. I don't know if that's a function of the skier pulling on the boat or what.

From Thomas's post, I'm assuming that secondaries open gradually as opposed to all or nothing. This really wasn't the problem I was having before I had my carb rebuilt (and ultimately replaced), so I don't have anything to add.

Storm861triple
12-06-2004, 02:00 PM
From Thomas's post, I'm assuming that secondaries open gradually as opposed to all or nothing.

Just so everyone is on the same page, the above statement is correct. If you go from idle to WOT instantly, as when pulling up a skier, initially the secondaries won't open at all. They will not begin to open until the air velicity through the primaries is sufficient to create enough vacuum to pull on the secondary pot's diaphram. As the RPM's continue to increase, the vacuum signal to that pot increases, and pulls the secondaries open further, until you are at full RPM, adn truely WOT on all four barrels. It is a progressive action -not all or nothing.

east tx skier
12-06-2004, 03:46 PM
Cool. Thanks for the explanation.

PeteS
12-20-2004, 10:16 AM
Thanks again for all the help, guys. All nuts are off, and bolts are out. My choke is dosconnected, as well as the return spring and throttle. Here's the problem.

The fuel line heading into the carb is giving me difficulties. I can't seem to break the nut free, without the entire connection turning (wish I had a photo to better explain).

The space is limited, so getting a wrench, pliars, or vice-grips on the larger nut above the nut I'm trying to remove is tough. I'm concerned about heating it, due to the fuel and fire issue. Any tips? It's also quite cold in northern MI, so that can't help. Thanks!

JimN
12-20-2004, 10:35 AM
Can you remove the fuel line from the pump and take the carb/line off as an assembly? That way, it may be easier to remove it. If you can get a line wrench, that can make the job easier. Spray the fittings with PB Blaster and let it sit for a while, then try it again. You may need to sacrifice the old line and have a new one made. It's not very expensive. Disconnect the line from the pump and use a pipe cutter so the length is correct.

PeteS
12-20-2004, 11:03 AM
That's a great idea, Jim. I could disconnect the old line and just pull it through with the carb.

What type of shop could make a new line for me? General auto repair? What is the material on the fuel line? Stainless or was that copper? Thanks a million!

JimN
12-20-2004, 02:48 PM
They should be able to make it up to whatever length you need. Usually steel. NAPA or most service shops can make it. Just needs a couple of fittings, a tubing cutter, the line and a flaring tool. All common stuff.

PeteS
12-21-2004, 01:23 PM
Sounds good, Jim. Once again, thanks for the advice. I'll disconnect the line from the pump, cut the fitting off, snake the line back out with the carb, and remove it from the carb in open air. Thanks again.

dchatagnon
01-15-2005, 06:55 PM
Hello,

I have bought a new 4160 carb for my 93 prostar. If you look to the 4160 carb there is a metal hose with a rubber cap on it (back left side). Do you know what I need to connect on it? before I did not have that.
Thanks for your help.

D-

Storm861triple
01-15-2005, 07:05 PM
The back left as you're looking at the front of the carb, or the back left as you're sitting in the drivers seat (that would be the correct way)?

Sounds like maybe the vacuum port for the PCV? But I'm guesing here because I'm getting a clear picture of what you're talking about. Pics would be helpful here.

-Tom

dchatagnon
01-15-2005, 07:12 PM
back left when you are looking at the front of the carb.
i will put a picture too.

Thanks.
-Damien

tph
01-15-2005, 07:54 PM
Hello,

I have bought a new 4160 carb for my 93 prostar. If you look to the 4160 carb there is a metal hose with a rubber cap on it (back left side). Do you know what I need to connect on it? before I did not have that.
Thanks for your help.

D-

I think you leave it "as is"

Storm861triple
01-15-2005, 07:57 PM
Looks like PCV to me. Mine is directly on the back though, in the middle.

-Tom

dchatagnon
01-15-2005, 08:08 PM
Tom,
What do you mean by PCV? Can you please post a picture of your?
Do you think there is no problem if I leave as it is?
Thanks.

Storm861triple
01-15-2005, 08:31 PM
Positive Crankcase Ventilation.

There is a little "doo-hickey" on the right (as you're sitting in the drivers seat) valve cover, that is in a rubber grommet. There is a 3/8" black hose that is connected to it that runs to the carb, but in reality it is connected to manifold vacuum. GENERALLY this connection to manifold vacuum occurs through the carb's base plate, at a nipple very much like the one in your picture.

The PCV Valve which is the "doo-hickey" that is in the grommet on the valve cover, is basically an engineered vacuum leak, sucking air from the crank case (via the valve cover area). This is caontaminated air that would otherwise vent to the atmosphere, but w/the PCV, it is positively drawn into the motor and burned. The fresh air to replace the gasses that are withdrawn from the crank case is drawn INTO the crank case via the breather/oil fill on the opposite valve cover.

dchatagnon
01-15-2005, 08:52 PM
Thanks Tom!

dchatagnon
01-16-2005, 03:00 PM
I was looking to change my carb adapter plate. Do you know where I can find one without the Vacuum so I will use the vacuum on the carb?
I looked at skidim and they just have one for the Edlebrock performer... I have a the original manifold on my 351.

Thanks.

Damien

Storm861triple
01-16-2005, 04:17 PM
Just leave one of the ports plugged; either the one on the plate, or the one on the carb. It doesn't matter which one you use.

PeteS
01-17-2005, 04:45 PM
As in autos, is replacing the PCV generally a good maintanence item every so often?

Thanks,
Pete

PeteS
01-17-2005, 04:51 PM
I think I'm going to use a speed shop in my area to rebuild my 88' 4160. Does anyone have any ideas as to finding a reputable one?

It'd be nice to know that the shop choosen will do a good job, cleaning everything that needs cleaning, and using all of the replacement parts in the kit. Am I dreaming or is there some sort of a screening process I could use. I'm in Detroit. Thanks once again for all of the great info everyone has providied to this point.

JimN
01-17-2005, 05:13 PM
If you can't find a place to rebuild a carb in Detroit, we're all in trouble! There should be either a carb rebuilder (that's all they do) near you or if you have any gearhead friends, they may know someone. Not knowing your area, I guess you can ask around at the better parts stores or see if there are any car clubs close to you. Call around and ask specifically if they have a lot of experience with boat carbs and ask if they have a way to test it while it's in their shop.

Yes, change the PCV valve.

Ron Grover
01-17-2005, 05:45 PM
My recommendation is to send it off to Holley Technical Service where the build the carbs. Sent mine had it back in 2 weeks. Look under www.holley.com Can't think of anyone that knows better how to rebuild it.

Just my $.02

PeteS
01-18-2005, 05:01 PM
Of course there are carb shops in my area, I've found many already -- the research you suggest I do will help, Jim.

I guess the issue at hand really becomes, do I want to spend the $150 at a local shop, and hope for positive results. Or do I want to send it out, pay $250 and know that the job will be done correctly and completely. To pay or not to pay, that is the question.

scott88prostar
02-14-2005, 03:02 PM
I rebuilt my carb and put in the quick change kit for the secondaries. I'd recommend anyone doing it. If I can, you can. What you learn may very well keep you on the water because your able to identify a problem that otherwise you would be at the mercy of the marina. Last summer it happened to me on the 4th and with a few twists of a screw driver I was back skiing. Oh what a feeling!

PeteS
02-21-2005, 09:36 AM
Glad to hear you had a good experience with yours, Scott! I sent mine out last week, or else I would have given it a shot. Quick question though, were did you find the quick change kit for the secondaries?

Are there any speciail instructions that I should remember when I bolt it back on? How about a tork spec? Thanks again for everyones help up to this point.