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View Full Version : I blame Ben Wallace...


Knoxes
11-22-2004, 11:31 AM
If the first punch hadn't been thrown, none of this woulda happened.

Dan K
11-22-2004, 11:45 AM
Wallace didn't punch he pushed and only after Artest had a flagrant foul. The whole thing is a disgrace, players and fans alike, but there is no excuse for a player to go into the stands, call security if you feel a fan did something wrong. Artest deserves to lose the season IMO. These players are supposed to be good example for us to follow, especially whe they make that kind of money.

JimN
11-22-2004, 11:57 AM
They should be good examples. They're supposed to be athletes who entertain us. They definitely should have a lit-tle ti-ny piece of brain that they use for keeping them out of situations like this one. On top of it, the little accountant looking guy in the stands isn't even the one who tossed the cup at Artest. At least, now he can take that time to promote his new rap disc without cutting into his playing time. Maybe even a world tour? (I can only hope) His being suspended for asking to take time off was a waste. I think he planned it this way. :popcorn:

Knoxes
11-22-2004, 12:31 PM
Ok, how about choke-punch? And it wasn't a flagrant foul. It was a hard foul, but not, by any stretch, the kinda thing that deserves what Wallace did. Wallace shoulda been ejected right away and escorted off the court. His lingering around just escalated the situation. He continued to taunt and berate Artest, who did exactly what he was supposed to do - walk away. I'm not saying that Artest was right about anything he did after that. I also think the fans, every one of them who threw something, before and after the brawl and anyone who came on the court get lifetime bans. Every single one of them.

tex
11-22-2004, 12:48 PM
i agree-the foul was not that hard! also, quit blaming alcohol! i saw more popcorn and sodas flying. most of those fans are a-holes without beer!

ski36short
11-22-2004, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE=tex most of those fans are a-holes without beer![/QUOTE]

Why's that? Because they're from "Detroit"?? The fan that has been identified as the initial cup-thrower has been identified as a guy from West Bloomfield which is quite well-to-do. Although I do like living in the area for the most part (the ski season is too short), I don't feel the need to defend it any more so think what you may. There are idiots everywhere, ours just seem to shine more brightly sometimes.

I'm not much of a basketball fan. Maybe now people will start talking about how violent hockey is (or was). It's going to be a long winter without the Wings playing...

Knoxes
11-22-2004, 02:31 PM
Which fan, ski? There were several, one of which, from what I understand, (the big guy pummeling Freddie Jones in the back of the head) is Ben Wallace's brother.

ski36short
11-22-2004, 03:04 PM
Unfortunately I haven't seen the entire video sequence but the local prosecutor said the guy that hit Artest with the initial cup of ice has been identified. He didn't show up for a "pre-arranged interview" yesterday and if he didn't turn himself in today they were going to go after him according to what the prosecutor said on the radio this morning. I think they said he will be charged with assault at the very least.

east tx skier
11-22-2004, 03:18 PM
Whatever happened before, Wallace stayed out of the stands. (Golf clap). Artest et al. didn't. (shameful). Fan who threw the drink ought to be/have been charged with assault and banned from the venue for life (also shamefule. So far, I don't have much trouble with the outcome, assuming the cup thrower gets his.

tex
11-22-2004, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE=tex most of those fans are a-holes without beer!

Why's that? Because they're from "Detroit"?? The fan that has been identified as the initial cup-thrower has been identified as a guy from West Bloomfield which is quite well-to-do. Although I do like living in the area for the most part (the ski season is too short), I don't feel the need to defend it any more so think what you may. There are idiots everywhere, ours just seem to shine more brightly sometimes.

I'm not much of a basketball fan. Maybe now people will start talking about how violent hockey is (or was). It's going to be a long winter without the Wings playing...[/QUOTE]

No, I don't have it out for Detroit fans. I actually spent a summer skiing just south of Detroit. I was just talking about a-holes in general.

BriEOD
11-22-2004, 04:31 PM
Whatever happened before, Wallace stayed out of the stands. (Golf clap). Artest et al. didn't. (shameful). Fan who threw the drink ought to be/have been charged with assault and banned from the venue for life (also shamefule. So far, I don't have much trouble with the outcome, assuming the cup thrower gets his.

I'm not following you on this one. Why would Wallace go into the stands to beat up his home crowd? The crowd I thought was defending him.

I agree they are all (the players involved) trash. They get paid millions of $. You know their are going to be some big time lawsuits over this one. I hear those ambulance chasers now.

OhioProstar
11-22-2004, 04:36 PM
I have been in lots of bar scuffles that usually end up with the person starting the fighting sliding out the front door unscathed. Artest is a professional and should have let the event staff handle someone who threw a drink from the stands. To run up there and try and pick on a skiney accountant was completely out of line. He deserves what he got. Now the guy on the floor that got smacked shouldn't have been on the floor and got his.

east tx skier
11-22-2004, 04:39 PM
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that Wallace would go into the stands. That's why he only got a golf clap.

Leroy
11-22-2004, 04:39 PM
Living in Indy and tuning in to watch it, I couldn't believe the stuff being thrown. Artest has his own problems and I'm not so sad to see him go. Wish he would have got his life straight for $5M less per year, he can think about that now. I also hope Carlisle makes the one year suspension the least of his worries. Just sad Jackson, Miller, and O'Neil got involved also. Pacers had a 6 person team (all bench guys) Sat night and almost won. Think they said each person got like 42 minutes! Normal starters out with injuries.

I couldn't believe the lack of security. Normally there are many officiers around the floor and behind the benches.

But hey, let's watch the Colts play Detroit on Thanksgiving day! Indy has always had grudge with NY and Detroit, used to be the CHicago when they mattered in basketball and football.

ski36short
11-22-2004, 05:29 PM
Tex - where'd you ski in the area? I grew up south of the city, actually ran my 190s on the river and Lake Erie for a few years before migrating northward to inland water.

Knoxes
11-22-2004, 05:45 PM
I have been in lots of bar scuffles that usually end up with the person starting the fighting sliding out the front door unscathed. Artest is a professional and should have let the event staff handle someone who threw a drink from the stands. To run up there and try and pick on a skiney accountant was completely out of line. He deserves what he got. Now the guy on the floor that got smacked shouldn't have been on the floor and got his.

We're all professionals, and he reacted after being attacked and provoked by Wallace and the crowd. I don't approve of the way he reacted, but frankly, I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same. They're held to a much higher standard than the average person. Maybe that's because they get paid so much, but that's not exactly fair. We've placed those conditions on the players - and only because we wanted to. Not because the job demands it. We demanded it and who's to say that's justified? He shouldn't have done it, but you can't discount the fans' behavior (not suggesting that's what you were saying).

east tx skier
11-22-2004, 06:01 PM
For the amount of money they make, you could throw worse than a cup of beer at me and I'd take it and call it ice cream.

Knoxes
11-22-2004, 06:09 PM
Well, sure, if that was my job. But who ever said it was part of their job to take sh!t from the crowd, aside from the typical booing and such? All we do when we say that's part of their job, is justify acting like friggin a-holes, saying and doing stuff to people that most of us wouldn't dream of doing in any situation.

"Sure, son, go ahead - bean him in the head with that battery - you know, that guy made $6.2M this year...."

Hoosier Bob
11-22-2004, 06:14 PM
24 and there is so much more! I would have reacted the same way at 24 and maybe even 40. The fan came on the court when he through the beverage of choice directly at Ron Artest. If I throw a rock in your yard at you I have invaded your space. Ron acted incorrectly and will pay for his choice. We saw the beverage and it was clearly meant for Ron. What we can't see are the coins and other various missiles heading their way. Ever try to break up a dog fight? Me too and I have been bitten twice! Ron Artest brings a lot of positives to the game. Up until his "RAP" issue he has played as hard as anyone I can remember in recent years. I would not want him running after me. Maybe the NBA should incorporate the NHL's position not to mess with the parties involved until one has gained a clear advantage over the other. I believe Ron would have had him (Ben Wallace), and it would have stayed on the court. "Put the violence back in the NBA and keep it on the court" could be the NBA's new motto.

PS. I do not attend these functions because of the fans, not the athletes. I will guarantee you that all of those "poor" children in attendence had their ears full long before the "event" started!

PSS. As always I could be wrong!

PSSS. Why doesn't the NBA provide a Harassment free, Discrimination free non threatening work environment? All regulations regarding fair and ethical treatment apply to the employee as well as the co-employee and the consumer/customer.

Knoxes
11-22-2004, 06:20 PM
I mean, what the hail would Brian Boitano do?

Hoosier Bob
11-22-2004, 06:25 PM
We all know Brian doesn't take s#$% from anybody!
Go Brian! :D QUOTE=Knoxes]I mean, what the hail would Brian Boitano do?[/QUOTE]

east tx skier
11-22-2004, 06:42 PM
Well, sure, if that was my job. But who ever said it was part of their job to take sh!t from the crowd, aside from the typical booing and such? All we do when we say that's part of their job, is justify acting like friggin a-holes, saying and doing stuff to people that most of us wouldn't dream of doing in any situation.

"Sure, son, go ahead - bean him in the head with that battery - you know, that guy made $6.2M this year...."

By saying that I, personally, would somehow have it in me not to rush the grandstands if someone threw something worse than a cup-o-beer at me, I did not mean to imply that violent fans were justified in hucking things at basketball players. If you read my initial post, you'll see that I think that the cup thrower ought to get his. And as far as it being part of their job to take Sh|t from fans, I believe it is in the NBA handbook that they are not permitted to go into the stands. So, while they may not like it, to an extent, it's part of their job to take it (or face the consequences).

In this sort of situation, somebody's got to be adult enough to walk away. Because nobody was, we ended up with this lousy riot. Fans that threw things and the players that went into the stands after them are equally worthy of the "dirtbag" tag in my opinion.

Rockman
11-22-2004, 08:03 PM
My simple :twocents: , fans are fans and should watch the game from their seats. If a fan has the b*lls to open his/her mouth and say something, then be prepared to back it up. Obviously some of those people on the TV Friday night couldn't do that and paid for it.

Players play on the court and their actions on the court should stay on the court. Players need to act like professionals. If something happens that provokes a fight and it is imperative to hit someone, then there is a problem and he will have to pay for it.

It all comes down to the fact that there are more mediocre players than ever before. Bring in the Riff-Raff and things like Friday night are just waiting to happen. The next time, one of the players will bring a gun and then... what's the next thing to happen?

In terms of basketball, the old Celtics, Lakers, and Bulls teams (just to mention a few) had classy players who knew how to handle themselves not only as professionals on the court but also off the court. The "love of the game" clauses found in many players' contracts back in the 80s and 90s are not to be found anymore.

I think the punishments were fair. Make our "Professionals" think about what they did. If starting a brawl meant so much to them, then missing a few games might actually mean something to them in the end. The best part, they don't get paid. Gotta love that!

TCrate
11-22-2004, 10:33 PM
West Bloomfield or not he allegedly has a long list of past offenses. Did you see the guy who said this whole thing happened in Auburn Hills and not Detroit. Like they never fight and murder in Detroit. Off course when they won the Championship you never heard anyone saying they aren't from Detroit but Auburn Hills.

JimN
11-22-2004, 11:04 PM
I think the security staff could have stepped in a bit sooner, but I don't think they were too eager. I don't mean the ushers, just the cops.

Hoosier- "when someone has a clear advantage"- Artest started with one. Even the small guys are going to come out on top more often than not.

I have to agree- there are more butt munches at games than before. The venues need to make it clear that BS like what happened Friday night will not be tolerated, backed up with arrests. Not like there aren't any cameras around.

Hoosier Bob
11-22-2004, 11:27 PM
Man, those guys sure can shake a can of mace! I would not want to be the one between any of them even if it was my job. :eek:

PS. Artest only had around a 100lb advantage on the wrong guy! I believe it would have been closer had he found the right guy. I'm struggling right now to tolerate and understand that our season has possibly ended. Make a few wiser decisions and we could have brought the championship to Indy without the embarassment.I think the security staff could have stepped in a bit sooner, but I don't think they were too eager. I don't mean the ushers, just the cops.

Hoosier- "when someone has a clear advantage"- Artest started with one. Even the small guys are going to come out on top more often than not.

I have to agree- there are more butt munches at games than before. The venues need to make it clear that BS like what happened Friday night will not be tolerated, backed up with arrests. Not like there aren't any cameras around.

rem_p
11-23-2004, 12:15 AM
I havent kept up with this or the clemson-south carolina game....but fighting in any sport is just plain rediculous....Although i think Artest was wrong for going into the stands....i can totally understand why he did it...Just imagine, any one of us is at work and we're not having such a great day...when all of a sudden some stranger comes up and throws a cup of ice at us....now yall can make your own decisions and do what you feel is right...as for me im gonna pick up that framing gun and start shootin 12s at them :D

OhioProstar
11-23-2004, 09:15 AM
Personally I think the fans are out of control. I was at a Bengals game this fall and it was not a place to bring young people, fights, constent cursing, things being thrown. My guess is the guy throwing the cup just lobbed it in Artest's direction and it actually hit him. He was probably thinking, "Oh Sh!$ I actually hit him". He shouldn't have done it and should be banned from the Palace. Whatever happened between Big Ben and Ron should have stayed on the court. Seems like Artest backed down to Ben, but when a stupid guy in the stands does something he goes crazy. Maybe he thought that it would be a good way to save face and start his music career earlier. He had lots of time to think about it while he was laying on the scorers table. Just a thought.

Zach S
11-23-2004, 09:32 AM
:twocents: If I start a fight with anyone at work, especially a customer I get fired... Last time I checked the fans are the ones paying the ridiculous salaries these guys are making. A little self control goes a long way in a situation like Fridays game.

John B
11-23-2004, 10:12 AM
I just finish watching ESPN they did something on Artest's past. He is a lose cannon.He should get a life time suspension.
Pro sports does not need someone like him. He is a lose cannon and he fired on the Wong person. What if it would have been a woman that had thrown it or if he though did. LIFE TIME SUSPENSION is what he should get now before he does it again!
Any player that go into the stands after a fan to fight or just to yell should get at lest a one game suspension.

tex
11-23-2004, 10:21 AM
Tex - where'd you ski in the area? I grew up south of the city, actually ran my 190s on the river and Lake Erie for a few years before migrating northward to inland water.
I skied in a show in Canada-Boblo Island. It was on the Detroit River. Great summer, Great People, and Great "Blue".

Ric
11-23-2004, 10:34 AM
I havent kept up with this or the clemson-south carolina game....but fighting in any sport is just plain rediculous....Although i think Artest was wrong for going into the stands....i can totally understand why he did it...Just imagine, any one of us is at work and we're not having such a great day...when all of a sudden some stranger comes up and throws a cup of ice at us....now yall can make your own decisions and do what you feel is right...as for me im gonna pick up that framing gun and start shootin 12s at them :D
Nobody throw any ice on Rem! :eek: I thought those things wouldnt shoot unless they were pressed down on the wood? OSHA maybe coming to visit you :eek:

Knoxes
11-23-2004, 11:05 AM
I just finish watching ESPN they did something on Artest's past. He is a lose cannon.He should get a life time suspension.
Pro sports does not need someone like him. He is a lose cannon and he fired on the Wong person. What if it would have been a woman that had thrown it or if he though did. LIFE TIME SUSPENSION is what he should get now before he does it again!
Any player that go into the stands after a fan to fight or just to yell should get at lest a one game suspension.

I think he's been unfairly scapegoated by the media. I think he showed pretty good restraint, but obviously not enough. Wallace is the one who got away with everything. He was the instigator and the provocator and still only got 6 games. That's BS.

DanC
11-23-2004, 03:45 PM
Artest "unfairly scapegoated by the media"? You must be kidding? He has been suspended 6-8 times in the last two years including slamming a camera to the ground. He needed "time out" from his paying job to go cut a CD. The guy is a punk and his track record over the last several years shows it. Ever heard of Kermit Washington and Rudy Tomjonovich? Peoples lives can get destroyed by sucker puches. Don't get me wrong, I believe the fan's behavior is deplorable and should be prosecuted. If fact the players have the right to work (play) in a safe and non-threatening environment. Something the players union should push. Fan misbehavior should not be tolorated to the extent it is.

"Wallace is the one who got away with everything. He was the instigator and the provocator and still only got 6 games. That's BS."

Sure Wallace deserves to be T'd, kicked out of the game and suspended for his shove (watch the video again, there were no closed fists). But you and I have no idea who the instigator is here. Events like this are usually a culmination of pushing, shoving, elbow to the face, finger to the eye, and dirty undercuts. Yes, Wallace escalated it to an unacceptable level, it doesn't mean he was the instigator.

Knoxes
11-23-2004, 06:21 PM
Artest "unfairly scapegoated by the media"? You must be kidding? He has been suspended 6-8 times in the last two years including slamming a camera to the ground. He needed "time out" from his paying job to go cut a CD. The guy is a punk and his track record over the last several years shows it. Ever heard of Kermit Washington and Rudy Tomjonovich? Peoples lives can get destroyed by sucker puches. Don't get me wrong, I believe the fan's behavior is deplorable and should be prosecuted. If fact the players have the right to work (play) in a safe and non-threatening environment. Something the players union should push. Fan misbehavior should not be tolorated to the extent it is.

"Wallace is the one who got away with everything. He was the instigator and the provocator and still only got 6 games. That's BS."

Sure Wallace deserves to be T'd, kicked out of the game and suspended for his shove (watch the video again, there were no closed fists). But you and I have no idea who the instigator is here. Events like this are usually a culmination of pushing, shoving, elbow to the face, finger to the eye, and dirty undercuts. Yes, Wallace escalated it to an unacceptable level, it doesn't mean he was the instigator.

Well, in this situation, I think he was unfairly treated, mostly because of Wallace's actions. But he was condemned, obviously, on his record. And he was the one taking sucker punches. He deserved suspension, and lots of it, but not a season. There are too many parties here getting away with all kinds of crap because he's taking the heat. Hell, Wallace seemed elated that all he got was 6 games. I don't blame him. He knows he deserved a lot more than that and got off with a slap on the wrist, comparatively. /

tex
11-23-2004, 06:29 PM
how about Rasheed staying on the bench!

Hoosier Bob
11-23-2004, 07:01 PM
I loved every minute watching these two play. Passion is what it is all about. I liked to think Ron was of the same mold. After this morning I am beginning to agree with some that he just does not get it! I love his passion and determination but it has all been outweighed by his ignorance. If there were any supporters (me included) I am sure that after witnessing his handling of the situation (pre-during-post) they have left his corner. I believed the "be a man" theory and am still waiting. I know people may over react but it is how the man handles his mistakes that earns him respect. He needs some solid advise and counsel. Brian Cox and Sir Charles lived dangerously close to the edge their entire career and were also targeted by the media and officials. They did a much better job playing to the same people they were working. Favorite all time was Brian Cox at Buffalo giving his 1 and 1 sign to the fans! All reportedly brought on by racial comments by the fans.
Sorry Ron I am out! :mad:

PS. I could change my mind again!

rem_p
11-23-2004, 07:21 PM
Nobody throw any ice on Rem! :eek: I thought those things wouldnt shoot unless they were pressed down on the wood? OSHA maybe coming to visit you :eek:

we use bostich coil nailers....the saftey is exposed...all you have to do is pull it in to simulate it being pressed against the wood....it'll shoot as long as you hold the saftey in....a guy at work shot a squirel out of a tree one time with one of them
:banana: