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H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 08:28 AM
Let me know what you think.

H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 08:32 AM
I'm still adjusting to them, but overall, I think they are improving my skiing. Most importantly, I finally have NO foot pain. Before, by the third pass, my feet hurt so bad, I was crying inside. I can now run 8-10 passes before having to quit b/c my arms can't take it anymore.

Ric
08-30-2006, 08:36 AM
. nice

vogelm1
08-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Those look very nice....glad you to hear you like them. I was thinking about a pair for my System 8. Out of curiousity, are those the type that release from the ski in a hard fall? Or can they be purchased that way? I'm having my ACL reconstructed next month and interested in a 'releaseable' binding for next season - for obvious reasons...:o

east tx skier
08-30-2006, 11:44 AM
Do they release?

Ric
08-30-2006, 12:03 PM
Do they release? I think they release quite easily:D

6ballsisall
08-30-2006, 12:05 PM
Who makes those?

Ric
08-30-2006, 12:06 PM
Nike .

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 12:08 PM
He has no release, they're on wiley's plates. also looks like the rear boot has water space under it, do they catch at all?

Vogelm1, if you want a release check out.
www.jagersport.com Fluid Motion Hardshells.
Mechanical release, boots on seperate plates, or single plate, or single boot. Lots of options I'd list as pretty safe.
www.reflexworld.com Ski Tec Hardshells France, lots of trickers on this system, really only good if you want to use an RTP or rubber rear boot, If you want to do duals you need to cut the rear plate to fit, and tune two separate release units. Mechanical release.
www.goode.com powershell 4 system, No holes to drill, single or dual boots one plate style. Mounts to ski with 3m Dual Loc, releases by forcing the separation of dual lock from each half. If you do this you DO need to replace dual loc each year and more often in warm climates or if you see it pealing
http://www.fogmanbindings.com/index.html Fogman Bindings. mechanical release single plate design. dual boots.

WARNING! If you make your own non release hardshell system Make sure that you use a good quality boot, there are alot of cheap inline boots out there that the buckles will rip out of the shell, or the lace will rip out resulting in one loose foot, and one anchored foot.

Intermediate and beginner skiers need the safety of the release MORE than professional skiers do because we ski in more unpredictable environments (public lakes, rollers, debris, poor drivers etc) and because a top skier knows when he's in form and can stop the run before taking a big digger.

east tx skier
08-30-2006, 12:08 PM
Who makes those?

I was under the impression that H20SkeeFreak made them himself? ?Verdad?

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 12:12 PM
He made them himself.

Inline skate boot, wiley's binding plate (ho pattern from the looks of it) some bulk material and screws, and presto!

I've seen some with hockey boots made in the same way.

6ballsisall
08-30-2006, 12:13 PM
H20 did you really make those??? They look very cool. Would be interested to see how your release system works.

east tx skier
08-30-2006, 12:28 PM
H20 did you really make those??? They look very cool. Would be interested to see how your release system works.

I don't think there is one, but ICBW.

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 12:35 PM
You can tell there isn't a release on that one.

So far the common release methods, spring pin, the silvretta verticle downhill type release, the use of dual loc.

Future options we might see a sacrificial release, such as a split pin that breaks at a certain force to release the plate.

These boots have none.

He is a brave brave man, good craftsmenship and execution, but I wouldn't be comfortable riding them after some of the falls i've taken and the releases I've taken from my FM boots, i'd be scared of going out of a fixed boot in the same way.

vtbuehler
08-30-2006, 01:39 PM
There is no release on them, a friend of mine has the same type of set on his ski and I asked him about release on his and he said when " I break the the boot." So I told him how I had a bad fall with two boots and ended up breaking my knee and he is now reconsidering his set up with the skate boots. Be careful with that set up, it only takes one wrong fall that is your season and maybe many monthes to recover.:confused: :confused: :confused:

BrianM
08-30-2006, 02:06 PM
They look dangerous. :noface: Why mess with your health and possible abilty to ski down the road to save $500?



Intermediate and beginner skiers need the safety of the release MORE than professional skiers do because we ski in more unpredictable environments (public lakes, rollers, debris, poor drivers etc) and because a top skier knows when he's in form and can stop the run before taking a big digger.
One nasty over the front at 50+ mph and you are going to wish they released. :eek3: I would beg to differ and say that those running shortline at 36 mph probably need a release even more. How many pros are using non releaseable bindings? I have heard of a handful but the huge majority would never ski on such a setup.

To each their own but I sure wouldn't strap them on to my feet.

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 04:32 PM
I see your point but notice I said top pros, there are alot of people running shortline at 36 mph, but you know they are skiing with in their limits with the exception of perhaps world record level passes. That's why you see andy mapple stop pulling when he knows he's going to be short at 39 or 41 and just call it off, and you consistantly see this. If they know its not going to get them more than another 1/4 or 1/2 bouy, and there is a good chance it throws off their season they're not going to run hard core into the end of the line.

Andy mapple was running a front hardshell with rear toe plate, no release save for having the ratchet straps filed so that they could pull free if under a ton of force...
Some of the top powershell users have holes drilled so they can put screws in for the tourneys and only use the release for during practice to prevent injury, but then run a rigid set up.

Also you see will asher running an approach front w/ rtp. That's essentially a non release front boot on ONE FOOT.

As far as if the pros need a release. Yea I'm sure they create tons of energy and are set up for drastic damage, but they're willing to take some risk if it helps their skiing or wins a title, but they're also good enough and experienced enough to quit. (this isn't all pros)

Do I feel its wise to do so. No, I'm also skiing FM's boot system because i've had injuries, a spiral fractured femur from a non release, and numerous ankle sprains from half out occurances, mainly in highwraps such as connelly stokers.

I agree on the one out one in damage scenario, and therefore would not personally run a soft rear with hardshell front or a rear toe plate with a high performance front binding.

Best if luck with the non-release, and consider developing your own release for that.

I'm still liking that idea of a zip tie as the sacrificial link in the system, get a uniform type, one in the rear that would sheer under excessive load... could be sweet and could even release horizontally

east tx skier
08-30-2006, 05:02 PM
I see your point but notice I said top pros, there are alot of people running shortline at 36 mph, but you know they are skiing with in their limits with the exception of perhaps world record level passes. That's why you see andy mapple stop pulling when he knows he's going to be short at 39 or 41 and just call it off, and you consistantly see this. If they know its not going to get them more than another 1/4 or 1/2 bouy, and there is a good chance it throws off their season they're not going to run hard core into the end of the line.

Andy mapple was running a front hardshell with rear toe plate, no release save for having the ratchet straps filed so that they could pull free if under a ton of force...
Some of the top powershell users have holes drilled so they can put screws in for the tourneys and only use the release for during practice to prevent injury, but then run a rigid set up.

Also you see will asher running an approach front w/ rtp. That's essentially a non release front boot on ONE FOOT.

As far as if the pros need a release. Yea I'm sure they create tons of energy and are set up for drastic damage, but they're willing to take some risk if it helps their skiing or wins a title, but they're also good enough and experienced enough to quit. (this isn't all pros)

Do I feel its wise to do so. No, I'm also skiing FM's boot system because i've had injuries, a spiral fractured femur from a non release, and numerous ankle sprains from half out occurances, mainly in highwraps such as connelly stokers.

I agree on the one out one in damage scenario, and therefore would not personally run a soft rear with hardshell front or a rear toe plate with a high performance front binding.

Best if luck with the non-release, and consider developing your own release for that.

I'm still liking that idea of a zip tie as the sacrificial link in the system, get a uniform type, one in the rear that would sheer under excessive load... could be sweet and could even release horizontally

As long as we're talking about top skiers, let's not forget this guy.

http://waterski.about.com/library/graphics/Chris_Parrish_Record.jpg

vogelm1
08-30-2006, 05:38 PM
He has no release, they're on wiley's plates. also looks like the rear boot has water space under it, do they catch at all?

Vogelm1, if you want a release check out.
www.jagersport.com Fluid Motion Hardshells.
Mechanical release, boots on seperate plates, or single plate, or single boot. Lots of options I'd list as pretty safe.
www.reflexworld.com Ski Tec Hardshells France, lots of trickers on this system, really only good if you want to use an RTP or rubber rear boot, If you want to do duals you need to cut the rear plate to fit, and tune two separate release units. Mechanical release.
www.goode.com powershell 4 system, No holes to drill, single or dual boots one plate style. Mounts to ski with 3m Dual Loc, releases by forcing the separation of dual lock from each half. If you do this you DO need to replace dual loc each year and more often in warm climates or if you see it pealing
http://www.fogmanbindings.com/index.html Fogman Bindings. mechanical release single plate design. dual boots.

WARNING! If you make your own non release hardshell system Make sure that you use a good quality boot, there are alot of cheap inline boots out there that the buckles will rip out of the shell, or the lace will rip out resulting in one loose foot, and one anchored foot.

Intermediate and beginner skiers need the safety of the release MORE than professional skiers do because we ski in more unpredictable environments (public lakes, rollers, debris, poor drivers etc) and because a top skier knows when he's in form and can stop the run before taking a big digger.

THANKS MUCH 88!! I'm on it...

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 07:12 PM
Of course not... Dual Wileys...

Wileys makes a great binding, but I feel that they can be a bit tight on the forefoot which fatigues me quite alot.

Plus there's all the different ways you can set wileys up and remove a bit of the safety element, running trick wraps, etc. More support less release.

H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 08:18 PM
So, as most of you have noticed, there is no release mechanism.


Why? Well first of all, this is my first prototype. I didn't want to go to the expense and trouble of making a release system 'til I made sure that my #1 goal was acheived: comfort. They pass the test, so I move on. I am most likely going to go to Dual Lock.

Secondly, I am a LONG line skier, still struggling at 15off and 30MPH. I am not creating the types of forces that are going to cause problems (knock on wood). Hopefully, the fact that I can now ski for MUCH longer each session I'll progress faster. Also: I've been on Phantom bindings for 2 seasons (killing my feet) and as someone said earlier, this is basically a non-release binding. I've taken a few hard falls, and NEVER had one even think about coming off.

Thirdly, there are several short line skiers out there that are on NON releasable bindings. Terry Winter was on a non-releasable system 'til he started working with Connelly on their TORQ system and Bruce Butterfield, who was one of the individuals who participated in the Waterski Magazine ski test this year, is on a non-releasable system.

And there is no more water space in between them than a Goode Powershell the good moves up and down on a spring, creating the same space then closing it. Mine doesn't have a spring b/c I want my foot to always be in the same position.

LakePirate
08-30-2006, 08:25 PM
Much like freek I have uncomfortable bindings, and my biggest problem is my feet hurt. I can deal with just about anything, except my feet hurting. So that brings me to my question

Freek you made custom bindings, some have mentioned that they have seen bindings made out of roller blade boots. Now I ask, how well do the rollerblade linings hold up in the water. Don't they get really funky after a while?

H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 08:31 PM
Much like freek I have uncomfortable bindings, and my biggest problem is my feet hurt. I can deal with just about anything, except my feet hurting. So that brings me to my question

Freek you made custom bindings, some have mentioned that they have seen bindings made out of roller blade boots. Now I ask, how well do the rollerblade linings hold up in the water. Don't they get really funky after a while?
Well, actually, all harshell bindings started out at rollerblade boots. Goode made the first ones, and they were Bauer roller hockey boots. MOST of the liners will hold up fine, many are removable and washable. I THOUGHT when I ordered these that they were going to be the same. They are NOT. So far that is the only thing I don't like about them. They take forever to dry, if they ever do. I've only been using them for 2 weeks, and only had them out 3 times unfortunately. We'll see how it goes. I found a set of rollerblades that I may order that have removable bindings for only not very much $$ online, but I'm hearing what 88PS is saying about cheap bindings, I wish someone had them locally so I could see them.

LakePirate
08-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Keep us posted on how they work out.

Don't dry very well?

Is athlete's foot common with the hardshell?

H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 08:39 PM
No, you aren't wearing them home. Most of them have removable liners. Like I said, I thought these did when I ordered them, and I should have sent them back but I'm very impatient.

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 09:00 PM
Intuition liners... that's who paul jager uses, and theirs are wonderful and have some sort of antimicrobial finish, though i think that probably washes out pretty quick.

I pull my liners and wash them from time to time if they get funky.

My only caution to you H2Oskeefreek is that if you do take a fall remember to roll with it, Ie if its an out the front tuck and roll, don't fight it because you'll get loads of pain.

Avoid falls at all costs in a non-release system. And good luck.

if you do find some boots with removable liners get the intuitions, they'll heat mold to the boot and work great.

H20skeefreek
08-30-2006, 09:27 PM
Thanks for the advise and well wishes. My intention is to go to a releasable system, I just have to find some inexpensive dual lock (if anyone knows a place, the info would be great!).

In the end, I'm buying a pair of fluid motions when I buy my Monza (or system 8), which is when I get to 22 off at 34, which should be next season.

phecksel
08-30-2006, 09:28 PM
BAD BAD BAD IDEA
One of our club's better skiers {35 off}, not once, but twice spiral fractured his leg. He finally swore off hard shells. Another club member, had to have knee surgery, and I haven't seen him ski since. One of the lady pro's also had a nasty leg break.

88 PS190
08-30-2006, 09:43 PM
what systems phecksel? saying avoid hardshells is like saying avoid all rubber bindings... kind of without meaning.


As far as interloc you won't find it cheap, you need alot and it needs to be replaced fairly often. Additionally with your boots on separate plates it would be folly as one can come off and not the other.

phecksel
08-30-2006, 10:56 PM
All three people had different systems.

88 PS190
08-31-2006, 12:23 AM
Must be your water???

I'm surprised by the result at your area. Though I've heard of such occurances on all systems, all companies claim that it was because the person didn't obey the directions fully.

For the goode the amount of interloc is critical, and keeping up with it required.

For the fogmans the release setting needs to be low enough to eject in a fall, you'd be surprised how many users set it too high by mistake or on purpose to prevent prerelease.

For the fluid motion the amount of velcro on the boot (front and rear) must be adjusted to you, as does the pin gap at the rear, and the spring setting ( a small amount of pin gap move is exponentially detrimental, too tight no release, too loose and it'll pop off, caliper required and i'm not kidding)

For the Ski tec the adjustment is also critical.

You'll read posts about people fearing the sale of a hardshell system, and its because if the person isn't willing or attentive enough the systems can be dangerous.

You must know and understand your system and the risks to be able to judge and set your ski properly.

There is no 100% safe way. Too bad eh?

H20skeefreek
08-31-2006, 05:35 AM
When my system is releasable, both bindings will be on one plate. There is no way I want one leg in, one out.

H20skeefreek
08-31-2006, 05:37 AM
BAD BAD BAD IDEA
One of our club's better skiers {35 off}, not once, but twice spiral fractured his leg. He finally swore off hard shells. Another club member, had to have knee surgery, and I haven't seen him ski since. One of the lady pro's also had a nasty leg break.
Please explain how you get a spiral fracture from a releasable hardshell binding.

Seriously, how are you having soooo many major injuries at your site?

Ric
08-31-2006, 09:23 AM
phekcs might not have meant that the lady pro was at his site, I think I know the one he's talking about and she was on a goode that broke in half between her feet iirc

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:19 AM
Of course not... Dual Wileys...

Wileys makes a great binding, but I feel that they can be a bit tight on the forefoot which fatigues me quite alot.

Plus there's all the different ways you can set wileys up and remove a bit of the safety element, running trick wraps, etc. More support less release.

I'm still somewhat new to mine, but have had no fatigue problems yet. I would ocassionally get foot pain with my animal and approach boots

Absolutely, you can, and many do run Wiley's with stiffer overlays, from "pro series" to "pro comp" to "pro build" to "trick." I recall reading that Parrish was running some sort of plastic overlay that Lucky fashioned for him that was somewhat similar to the trick wrap.

I'm running the "Pro Build" overlay on my front boot, which is, according to Wiley's, one degree of stiffness/thickness less than the trick wrap. I think it's a jump boot overlay, but am not positive on that one. It offers me plenty of support and the full toe on the front boot seems to keep that front foot in full contact with the ski.

Even with the extra stiffness in the front boot though, I can push the ski off my fee with no hands after a run. While there might be falls where I'll stay in, I can't imagine not coming out of those boots if things get OTF hairy.

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:26 AM
Well, actually, all harshell bindings started out at rollerblade boots. Goode made the first ones, and they were Bauer roller hockey boots. MOST of the liners will hold up fine, many are removable and washable. I THOUGHT when I ordered these that they were going to be the same. They are NOT. So far that is the only thing I don't like about them. They take forever to dry, if they ever do. I've only been using them for 2 weeks, and only had them out 3 times unfortunately. We'll see how it goes. I found a set of rollerblades that I may order that have removable bindings for only not very much $$ online, but I'm hearing what 88PS is saying about cheap bindings, I wish someone had them locally so I could see them.

You might want to investigate what they use to dry out snow ski boots. I can't remember how it works, but have seen them in the rent shops from time to time.

6ballsisall
08-31-2006, 10:28 AM
When my system is releasable, both bindings will be on one plate. There is no way I want one leg in, one out.

Wouldn't happen with the Fluid Motion setup. the way they are designed if one foot comes out most definetely the other foot will too. There is nothing more than a piece of velcro in the middle holding them down. I guarantee both will release everytime and I speak from personal experience.

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:29 AM
what systems phecksel? saying avoid hardshells is like saying avoid all rubber bindings... kind of without meaning.


As far as interloc you won't find it cheap, you need alot and it needs to be replaced fairly often. Additionally with your boots on separate plates it would be folly as one can come off and not the other.

I've heard every three releases is a good time to replace the dual lock. But I still think it's better to go to that expense than to have something that doesn't release at all, even at long line and slow speeds. I'm at the same line lenth and speed and my falls still feel rough. I applaud you for a well done project. I'm reminded of the fact that there is no completely safe water ski boot be it rubber or hard shell. Have fun, be safe, and good luck.

6ballsisall
08-31-2006, 10:31 AM
Those that I talk to that have the Goode powershells like them but there is a major complaint about having to always replace the duolock system. That hindered me from going that direction. Fluid's are great! Once you get them dialed in they are VERY lot maintenence.

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:32 AM
Wouldn't happen with the Fluid Motion setup. the way they are designed if one foot comes out most definetely the other foot will too. There is nothing more than a piece of velcro in the middle holding them down. I guarantee both will release everytime and I speak from personal experience.

I'll still stand by the statement that there is still no completely safe binding system, including my old rubber Wiley's.

Jeff, how long did it take you to settle on a release setting? Paul's system seems great and I was considering it. The complaint I've heard from some is that it's hard for some to find a setting that will release when they need it to, but won't prerelease when they don't. Unfortunately, I've read of at least one that opted for a tad to much on the nonrelease side and sustained an injury. That said, that may be the only one I've seen (certainly read of more injuries in rubber boots, but there are a lot more skiers still on rubber I would presume).

6ballsisall
08-31-2006, 10:44 AM
I'll still stand by the statement that there is still no completely safe binding system, including my old rubber Wiley's.

Jeff, how long did it take you to settle on a release setting? Paul's system seems great and I was considering it. The complaint I've heard from some is that it's hard for some to find a setting that will release when they need it to, but won't prerelease when they don't. Unfortunately, I've read of at least one that opted for a tad to much on the nonrelease side and sustained an injury. That said, that may be the only one I've seen (certainly read of more injuries in rubber boots, but there are a lot more skiers still on rubber I would presume).

It wasn't to bad. The hardest part was getting the plates setup right. 88 is correct, the use of a caliper is really much better than trying to eyeball the setup.

Paul told me to start out with a setting of 2, I found that to be a bit soft for me. (180 lbs., 6') so I went up to 3 and it seems perfect. When I messed up my ribs it released exactly as it should. I haven't taken any huge falls since (still nervous after the rib incidence) but find the setting to be right on. Paul did tell me a setting of 5 is begging for injury and most pros using his setup are between a 4-5 setting.

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:47 AM
If I recall, the guy who was injured was running a 4 or so. Read about it on the Nicholl's forum. Of course, it's probably in the archives now.

6ballsisall
08-31-2006, 10:48 AM
If I recall, the guy who was injured was running a 4 or so. Read about it on the Nicholl's forum. Of course, it's probably in the archives now.

I could see that.. at that point you are definetely pushing the envelope. I'd say a 4 on Fluid's would be like skiing on rubbers that wouldn't release.

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 10:58 AM
I could see that.. at that point you are definetely pushing the envelope. I'd say a 4 on Fluid's would be like skiing on rubbers that wouldn't release.

Been there, done that. Not a hint of an injury. But as we discussed, if I'm worried about not releasing in the back of my mind, that's going to keep me from turning on the gas. So far, I'm loving the Wiley's, although my last binding movement (moved the front boot to 29.75 on a 67" monza with rear boot at 17") really but a nasty spray burn on my back leg on every offside cut. Moved the rear boot to 17.25" to see if that would help, but haven't gotten to ride it like that yet.

BrianM
08-31-2006, 11:18 AM
I ski my FMs at a setting of 2.5 and I am 5'11" 180lbs. I have never had them release when they shouldn't have. They do release fairly easily in a crash but I don't mind having to hop up on the deck to step back in the ski. I have not had an instance where I thought to myself that the bindings should have done something different. I take more than my share of nasty falls so they do get 'tested' regularly.

88 PS190
08-31-2006, 12:15 PM
Prereleasing from FM's is a problem if your pin gap is too large. Every .01 inch is going to drop your setting by alot more than 1 setting because the spring gets compressed so much less distance, if the plate slips and your pin gap goes from the set .44 +- .02 then you'll either not release .40 or release way easy .48 if you have a .44 ish distance they are very reliable even at low settings, i'm 6 foot 165 and they don't prerelease on 2.25

BrianM
08-31-2006, 12:57 PM
Prereleasing from FM's is a problem if your pin gap is too large. Every .01 inch is going to drop your setting by alot more than 1 setting because the spring gets compressed so much less distance, if the plate slips and your pin gap goes from the set .44 +- .02 then you'll either not release .40 or release way easy .48 if you have a .44 ish distance they are very reliable even at low settings, i'm 6 foot 165 and they don't prerelease on 2.25

Exactly, I keep a close eye on my pin gap, measure (with the gap tool) and adjust if necessary every couple of time out.

88 PS190
08-31-2006, 12:58 PM
bingo, paul has thought it all out. I'll admit an FMX plate probably cuts down on maintenence.

the issue with inter loc.

http://www.waterskitests.com/images/DSC_0117.jpg

H20skeefreek
08-31-2006, 03:02 PM
LOL, and that's why I haven't gone to dual lock yet! My ski buddy has a pair of Goode's that he just switched from becuase of one pre-release, he ended up using the Goode boots, Fogman plages and got the fluid motion release from Jager's supplier since you can't buy fogmans right now.

Ric
08-31-2006, 03:03 PM
you shoulda seen the otf double somersault I pulled yesterday evening.. Wally can flip!
Glad I came out of those ripped up rubber venoms!

east tx skier
08-31-2006, 03:30 PM
Did you rip 'em?

Ric
08-31-2006, 04:14 PM
oh ya, a long time ago
what ripped yesterday was not my boots:eek:

BrianM
08-31-2006, 04:53 PM
bingo, paul has thought it all out. I'll admit an FMX plate probably cuts down on maintenence.

the issue with inter loc.

http://www.waterskitests.com/images/DSC_0117.jpg
This picture needs to be put in the OFFICIAL "This is Gonna to Hurt" Thread (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=10195&highlight=gonna+hurt)

88 PS190
08-31-2006, 04:59 PM
I would if it were me or a friend, but that's off the official ski test site.

So I won't.

I think If goode used a more rigid plate the system probably wouldn't release prematurely as easily, it appears as if pressure on the center allowed the front to be driven up...

I also believe she didn't fully release, no one saw it and she fell the next pass before it released.

Ric
08-31-2006, 05:02 PM
I would if it were me or a friend, but that's off the official ski test site.

So I won't.

I think If goode used a more rigid plate the system probably wouldn't release prematurely as easily, it appears as if pressure on the center allowed the front to be driven up...

I also believe she didn't fully release, no one saw it and she fell the next pass before it released. maybe it's by design and is an articulating footplate to allow the skier to get back on the ski while staying opent to the boat:rolleyes:

ski36short
09-01-2006, 12:21 PM
bingo, paul has thought it all out. I'll admit an FMX plate probably cuts down on maintenence.

I agree, and for that reason alone I'm surprised he doesn't push it harder. He only suggests the FMX for use on multiple skis. I mounted the FMX to my Goode and that's the only ski it's been on. The only maintenance is tightening the screws on the back that hold it to the ski. BTW, I'm 5'10" & 175 lbs and I my release setting is 2.5-2.75. Works perfectly.

88 PS190
09-01-2006, 12:23 PM
and rib tops/ contours between teh bindings.

I wish I had bought the FMX for 100 instead of it being 200 as an after thought, or i'd probably order it up.

Glad paul pointed me towards the nomad, i'm really loving it.

countymountie
09-05-2006, 06:35 PM
I am considering getting FM Quatros for my next ski which will probably be an HO Triumph. Currently I am still working on improving on 15' @ 28. I am on an HO Burner with double venoms.

Would an FM setup be compatable with with my intermediate ability?

I twisted my front ankle (wearing a RTP at the time with the front venom cinched down) going out the front, and recently switched over to double boots. The last time OTF required a visit to the ER for an X-ray....not broken. I am looking for a boot setup that will release, which would probably exclude Approaches and I didn't care for Animals.

What's your opinion on Wiley's???

jimmer2880
09-06-2006, 12:29 PM
Wow... I'm glad this thread started. I am (or should say, was) close to ordering a Goode w/Powershells.

Sounds like the Flud Motions are a good setup for someone who wants a great performing, safe boot.

88 PS190
09-06-2006, 12:31 PM
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/hawkskier/DCP_1197.jpg

Not to mention how cool they look lol.

MYMC
09-06-2006, 12:36 PM
Wow... I'm glad this thread started. I am (or should say, was) close to ordering a Goode w/Powershells.

Sounds like the Flud Motions are a good setup for someone who wants a great performing, safe boot.
Worst fall I have ever taken was using that crap (velcro)...Dave was a stand up guy and bought it all back with a call over the phone.

88 PS190
09-06-2006, 01:58 PM
interloc is just difficult to make work consistantly without alot of tinkering.

hacker
09-11-2006, 03:12 PM
LOL, and that's why I haven't gone to dual lock yet! My ski buddy has a pair of Goode's that he just switched from becuase of one pre-release, he ended up using the Goode boots, Fogman plages and got the fluid motion release from Jager's supplier since you can't buy fogmans right now.

The new 2007 Fogmans are available...

http://www.h2osmosis.com/

pq2
09-11-2006, 03:23 PM
Sweeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!

Ric
09-11-2006, 04:12 PM
Let me know what you think.

Ok I'll bite... I cannot tell from the pics so I kidded around the first few times I looked at this thread...

You did not really ski that setup as pictured did you?

I thought you were just showing us a mockup of a boot set you'd like to mount to your ski. It looks in the pic like a couple of pieces of my trailer bunks stacked under your rear heel to create a desired angle, but DOES NOT look like a setup I'd try to ski... Am I all wet?

88 PS190
09-11-2006, 04:34 PM
Only thing I hate about fogman is that they never update the websites including H2Osmosis to include real information that's easy to access and look at. www.fogmanbindings.com is still talking about issues for 2006.

Also I wish they had the front and rear release barrels mounted on plates that attached to the sides and so could get on the factory inserts, instead of center drilling the ski.

And yes, he rode those orange rollerblade boots fixed.

H20skeefreek
09-11-2006, 04:38 PM
To each his own. I am skiing it. If you have some input, I'd love to hear it, put I wouldn't ski it isn't helpful.

88 PS190
09-11-2006, 05:36 PM
I'd just build the area beneath the rear boot to be 100% fail proof and tape the ankles!

H20skeefreek
09-11-2006, 08:20 PM
tape the ankles? mine?

88 PS190
09-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Because ankles are injury prone on nonrelease boots. Where as your larger bones and such can help protect each other within reason.

H20skeefreek
09-11-2006, 09:14 PM
so, would you recommend taping on someone using Approach bindings?

H20skeefreek
09-11-2006, 09:38 PM
The new 2007 Fogmans are available...

http://www.h2osmosis.com/
where can we find some info on them, h2osmosis doesn't have any info on the site. do you have a price yet? I heard in excess of $700. If so, that's WAY to salty for me.

BuoyChaser
09-11-2006, 09:52 PM
http://www.fogmanbindings.com/ordering.html

Fogman Hardshell Binding Systems are distributed by H2Osmosis Sports. Dealers may call H2Osmosis Sports at 866.213.7993 to setup an account with us. Customers may call the same number to place an order, visit our website at www.h2osmosis.com, or contact one of the dealers listed below.

In-X-Tremis Sports in Quebec, Canada-Phone 406.656.0997

Sportsman Marine in Manitoba, Canada-Toll Free 888.788.3433

SchnitzSkis in Florida, USA-Toll Free 800.480.0090

BuoyChaser
09-11-2006, 10:02 PM
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m298/hawkskier/DCP_1197.jpg

Not to mention how cool they look lol.
how do you like your Fluid Motion bindings, compared to any other hard shells???

Ric
09-11-2006, 11:23 PM
To each his own. I am skiing it. If you have some input, I'd love to hear it, put I wouldn't ski it isn't helpful. seriously..... I'm askin' are you skiing this setup?
You say you are. I won't dispute that, but I have to say that your posts led me to think this thread was a teaser to fire up the hardshell arguments.
Can we see some helpful pics of how the boots are attached to the plates?

88 PS190
09-11-2006, 11:34 PM
I was looking for safety when I ordered FM bindings. Primary consideration.

The FM system uses a notch in the front for the front boot's plate to enter, with velcro beneath to stabilize the plate and allow you to jump off the platform w/o loosing the ski.

The rear plate notches into the rear of the front in a similar way. And the two are tensioned at the rear by the spring pin. With the boots off the ski and interlocked together in the middle you can grab one boot and rock it side to side and the two boots will move together as if it were one plate.

Compared to other systems. FM's do not allow much adjustment of the individual boots without doing some work. The Fogmans and Goodes are much more adjustable, rotation front and rear some distance between ankle movement. Etc. i'm not much into tweaking my binding rotation and stuff so this wasn't an issue to me.

I have not ridden a ski tec, or a fogman or a goode, but have seen and poked around the three.

FM's are the most rigid rocking to ski movement except the goode.
Ski tec's mounting I like the most though the boot can rock on the plate a bit, atleast the older ones, new ones maybe not so much. This leads to people shimming under the boot to stabilize it to the mounting plate. Goode doesn't rock, but I hate the dual lock stuff as a release, and so didn't consider it though they cost less dual lock runs 60+$ to replace on the ski and you do that every 3-10 releases if you want it to remain consistant. That adds up. The velcro in the middle of the FM is held on by body panel tape available at walmart, and seldom needs replacement.
Fogmans have two releases, front and rear, I like the idea, but i wish the release barrels were mounted to the outsides of the ski, instead of centrally.

Hard to give a real definative review of all systems, but those are my ideas on it.

Poke them yourself.

Bennetts has some ski tec, go ski there for a week and give a look at them.

H20skeefreek
09-12-2006, 08:35 AM
seriously..... I'm askin' are you skiing this setup?
You say you are. I won't dispute that, but I have to say that your posts led me to think this thread was a teaser to fire up the hardshell arguments.
Can we see some helpful pics of how the boots are attached to the plates?
Ric, sorry to "snap" at you. It's just that overall I've gotten nothing but crap about this setup. No one wants to give input other than "I'd just buy some fluid motions". I'm sorry but I can't have $1,000 tied up in my ski, but I cannot ski witht he approach bindings that I have. I get sooo much pain from them that I can't ski more than 3 passes, and especially can't take the time between passes to the coaching that I need. The approach bindings don't feel safe to me either. There is NO way that my front binding will ever release, and if I have the rear binding loose enough that I can ski 4 sets instead of 3, i'm not confident that it will stay in. My philosophy on bindings is that both feet need to come out, or both need to stay in, not one in one out. I can recover from a slight sprain, a spiral fracture is another story.

I'll post pictures later, but here is how they are attached:

The front binding is bolted through the bottoms just like they would be on the rollerblade tracks, except I upped the bolt size. Contrary to the photos I posted earlier in the thread, and on the nichools website, the front boot is attached to the plate with no spacing. I wasn't comfortable with the amount of "rock" I had on the ski.

The rear binding is attached the same way in the front, but the rear needed some lift for the binding to be tightened up and for me to still get my rear knee up to my front need for good body position. It could be mounted flat, but that didn't feel comfortable. I would have to loosen the top of the binding to allow the proper rear ankle flex. So, I took 2 polyethelene blocks and sandwiched them Latitudely (sp?) on the ski, so to give the lift, but side to side support to elimnate any rocking.

In the bottom of the boots, there is a big 1/5" zinc coated washer that helps to disperse the pressures and eliminate any possibiltiy of the bolts pulling out. I studied a pair of Goode Powershells very closely before an during the process, I feel that my plates are attached just as well, or even better than the Goodes are.

I think everyone's concern is that they are NON releasable. I want to make them releasable, but haven't found a good way to do it yet. I could easily use Dual Lock, but I just think that is a bad idea. Pre-Release is just way to easy (I've seen it), and there is no way to adjust the tension.

My latest idea, if I can get the parts is to go with a fogman type system, building a plate similar to the fluid motion FMX plate, so that I don't have to drill any more holes for the attachement of the releases I would then go with 2 fluid motion type releases, one fore, and the other aft like a fogman setup.

BrianM
09-12-2006, 09:37 AM
Ric, sorry to "snap" at you. It's just that overall I've gotten nothing but crap about this setup. No one wants to give input other than "I'd just buy some fluid motions". I'm sorry but I can't have $1,000 tied up in my ski, but I cannot ski witht he approach bindings that I have. I get sooo much pain from them that I can't ski more than 3 passes, and especially can't take the time between passes to the coaching that I need. The approach bindings don't feel safe to me either. There is NO way that my front binding will ever release, and if I have the rear binding loose enough that I can ski 4 sets instead of 3, i'm not confident that it will stay in. My philosophy on bindings is that both feet need to come out, or both need to stay in, not one in one out. I can recover from a slight sprain, a spiral fracture is another story.

I'll post pictures later, but here is how they are attached:

The front binding is bolted through the bottoms just like they would be on the rollerblade tracks, except I upped the bolt size. Contrary to the photos I posted earlier in the thread, and on the nichools website, the front boot is attached to the plate with no spacing. I wasn't comfortable with the amount of "rock" I had on the ski.

The rear binding is attached the same way in the front, but the rear needed some lift for the binding to be tightened up and for me to still get my rear knee up to my front need for good body position. It could be mounted flat, but that didn't feel comfortable. I would have to loosen the top of the binding to allow the proper rear ankle flex. So, I took 2 polyethelene blocks and sandwiched them Latitudely (sp?) on the ski, so to give the lift, but side to side support to elimnate any rocking.

In the bottom of the boots, there is a big 1/5" zinc coated washer that helps to disperse the pressures and eliminate any possibiltiy of the bolts pulling out. I studied a pair of Goode Powershells very closely before an during the process, I feel that my plates are attached just as well, or even better than the Goodes are.

I think everyone's concern is that they are NON releasable. I want to make them releasable, but haven't found a good way to do it yet. I could easily use Dual Lock, but I just think that is a bad idea. Pre-Release is just way to easy (I've seen it), and there is no way to adjust the tension.

My latest idea, if I can get the parts is to go with a fogman type system, building a plate similar to the fluid motion FMX plate, so that I don't have to drill any more holes for the attachement of the releases I would then go with 2 fluid motion type releases, one fore, and the other aft like a fogman setup.

You might want to consider cutting away some of the top of the shell especially on the rear boot. that will allow you to flex a little more like a rubber binding in the rear which is a good thing. You will still be rigid side to side but you will be able to bend the knees better. Same thing for the front but probably not so much.

east tx skier
09-12-2006, 10:14 AM
The approach bindings don't feel safe to me either. There is NO way that my front binding will ever release, and if I have the rear binding loose enough that I can ski 4 sets instead of 3, i'm not confident that it will stay in. My philosophy on bindings is that both feet need to come out, or both need to stay in, not one in one out. I can recover from a slight sprain, a spiral fracture is another story.

This is the precise reason I stopped skiing the Approach boots. Mostly price, but also complexity of initial setup and the thought that the technology could improve a lot over the next few years caused me to decide that hardshells weren't the answer for me this year. I've been in Wiley's for the last few months and find them to be the best boots I've ever had on my feet. They are comfortable, the are rigid enough around the ankle and over the top of the front foot that I feel similar control as I had with the Approach boots, and they come off easily. The price was around $260 delivered for the "Pro Build" setup. Setup, was what I knew it would be---set them up to the stock numbers and see how they perform. Only too required was a screwdriver and a tape measure.

I know this does not address what you want addressed, but it was my response to similar feelings when moving away from bindings given similar concerns. I don't mention another boot setup to discourage you. But given what you said about your feelings concerning the Approach boots, I felt it to be pertinent.

Good luck with your binding project.

Ric
09-12-2006, 10:27 AM
I think everyone's concern is that they are NON releasable. I want to make them releasable, but haven't found a good way to do it yet. I could easily use Dual Lock, but I just think that is a bad idea. Pre-Release is just way to easy (I've seen it), and there is no way to adjust the tension.

My latest idea, if I can get the parts is to go with a fogman type system, building a plate similar to the fluid motion FMX plate, so that I don't have to drill any more holes for the attachement of the releases I would then go with 2 fluid motion type releases, one fore, and the other aft like a fogman setup.

If you do this, will the two boots be attached to one another like the fluid motion system?

I understand poor-manning some mods, I do it too, but when it comes to your bindings... I am concerned about your safety when I see the blocks under the rear heel and the non release system.

By going to all this trouble, you may come up with the next big thing regarding hardshell bindings.

I'd bet Jager put himself into some precarious situations over the years as he developed the fluid motion system too:cool:

88 PS190
09-12-2006, 11:01 AM
so, would you recommend taping on someone using Approach bindings?


not at all, you cannot tape and get in or out of neoprene, the tape gets all stuck to the rubber.

gash
09-12-2006, 12:11 PM
Keep us posted on how they work out.

Don't dry very well?

Is athlete's foot common with the hardshell?

ha ha. :D :D

88 PS190
09-12-2006, 12:14 PM
Good liners for hardshells are antimicrobial.

BrianM
09-12-2006, 12:52 PM
I have not had any issues with the Intuition liners. They dry very quickly and I believe are also antimicrobial.

Ric
09-12-2006, 01:16 PM
ha ha. :D :D Welcome GASH!




Congratulations on your first post:toast:

H20skeefreek
09-12-2006, 02:04 PM
The bindings would be attached together like a Fluid Motion Single Plate system or like a fogman. I don't like the idea of my feet flailing around as I fly through the air, I'd like them to stay together.

If you could see the "blocks" in person, you'd see that it's not really a risk. The blocks are as wide as the boot for the purpose of not allowing side to side motion. I'd upload some pictures, but can't find the cable to my camera.

I have NO intention of taking anything like this commercial. I'm somewhat of a Do It Yourselfer, not much of an entrepreneur.

east tx skier
09-12-2006, 02:06 PM
On a single plate system, is there concern for how you tread water? I guess I am considering my perspective of not using a coast guard approved vest, so I tend to float a little lower (especially with my ski off). The thought of my feet connected to a single plate concerns me.

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 02:09 PM
On a single plate system, is there concern for how you tread water? I guess I am considering my perspective of not using a coast guard approved vest, so I tend to float a little lower (especially with my ski off). The thought of my feet connected to a single plate concerns me.
just contact your agent and take out a larger policy!!!

H20skeefreek
09-12-2006, 02:11 PM
not at all, you cannot tape and get in or out of neoprene, the tape gets all stuck to the rubber.
My point here is that approach bindings are just as non-releasable.

H20skeefreek
09-12-2006, 03:25 PM
http://www.fogmanbindings.com/ordering.html

Fogman Hardshell Binding Systems are distributed by H2Osmosis Sports. Dealers may call H2Osmosis Sports at 866.213.7993 to setup an account with us. Customers may call the same number to place an order, visit our website at www.h2osmosis.com, or contact one of the dealers listed below.

In-X-Tremis Sports in Quebec, Canada-Phone 406.656.0997

Sportsman Marine in Manitoba, Canada-Toll Free 888.788.3433

SchnitzSkis in Florida, USA-Toll Free 800.480.0090
Bouy Chaser,

What I'd like is an online source where I can read all of the info myself....what has changed, what are the advantages to them over others and ....WHAT IS THE PRICE?

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:36 PM
Bouy Chaser,

What I'd like is an online source where I can read all of the info myself....what has changed, what are the advantages to them over others and ....WHAT IS THE PRICE?
price is $650 for a complete setup...will be available to ship as early as next week...contact Jason at H2Osmosis Sports 866.213.7993 they are the exclusive distributor!!!

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:38 PM
My point here is that approach bindings are just as non-releasable.
not necessarily, my HO phantom approach bindings i get some heal raise on some pretty bad falls, but you're right when you get them cranked down your feet aren't going anywhere...

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:39 PM
another pic from Jason...

88 PS190
09-12-2006, 03:49 PM
The safety issue with the single plate is that if you stand in slalom stance and have someone shove you forwards both your ankles lift immediately. This happens coming out of rubber bindings, and out of FM double plate systems, none of the other dual boot one plate systems offer this relief to the front ankle and it has resulted in some broken front ankles/torn achilles tendons on the goode and fogman systems.

I'm not saying having them separate fixes all the issues in a binding system, it doesn't but assuming you don't overload the spring tension and don't apply excess velcro to the center.

People in approaches tell me different things, some claim that as long as you don't tighten them up too much they release consistantly, others say they never come out of it. But you will notice I don't ski an approach.

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:52 PM
nice orange color!!!

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:53 PM
sure there will be a lot more talk after Surf Expo this week and US Open...which is where I would imagine they'll have their debut...

BuoyChaser
09-12-2006, 03:55 PM
People in approaches tell me different things, some claim that as long as you don't tighten them up too much they release consistantly, others say they never come out of it. But you will notice I don't ski an approach.
in my opinion you have to tighten down the approaches, otherwise the top is SO LOOSE it is even more dangerous because they open in the front...

east tx skier
09-12-2006, 03:56 PM
People in approaches tell me different things, some claim that as long as you don't tighten them up too much they release consistantly, others say they never come out of it. But you will notice I don't ski an approach.

My experience with the approach boot is that they don't feel right performancewise unless the laces are cinched all the way down. With the animals and similar bindings, you could run them loose and the boot still felt supportive. The problem, as mentioned, in my experience is with the Approach boots cinched down tight, I never came out in a fall.

H20skeefreek
09-12-2006, 09:53 PM
price is $650 for a complete setup...will be available to ship as early as next week...contact Jason at H2Osmosis Sports 866.213.7993 they are the exclusive distributor!!!
Isn't that a significant jump in price for the Fogman?

88 PS190
09-12-2006, 11:05 PM
Not a huge jump I don't think, Fogmans have always been pricy, you have to buy two release units, the boots, the plate, and the liners.

Goodes are the least expensive hardshell system, but the interloc is so expensive.

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:14 AM
ok, here are some pictures of the attachment. Input welcome.

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:15 AM
picture 2..........

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:16 AM
picture 3...................... and yes, this is verry solid

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:17 AM
picture 4...................

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:18 AM
picture 5......................

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 08:19 AM
picture 6..........................

88 PS190
09-14-2006, 12:58 PM
Can the bottom of the front of the boot be carved off?

If so your heel can come down more, you have extreme lift on that rear one, and the lug on the front makes it seem as if the front heel is low. like an earth shoe.

H20skeefreek
09-14-2006, 09:44 PM
no, unfortunately I don't think it can. If I cut the front block off, I don't feel there would be enough material to grab on to, making it much less stable, that's the reason I originally had the spacers on the rear of the front boot. If I had a bench sander I could probably take a little off and still be comfortable. with it. I'm seriously thinking about scrapping the whole thing and going back to the pain machines (approaches) for 1% more safety. These are also a pain to put on and off. when I ordered them they looked like they had 2 buckles instead of 1 buckle, laces and a velcro strap. They take 10 years to put on and 12 to take off. But if the prices of these harshells keep going up, i'll never be able to afford them.

H20skeefreek
04-03-2007, 10:14 PM
Well, crew, I scrapped the fixed hardshells last season for safety reasons. Nobody thought that non-releasable was the way to go.

These are what I have now. They are Goode Powershell boots, a Fogman plate and blocks, and the release units, both front and rear are the release units that Fluid motion uses on the rear of thier setup. The blocks that the pins go into had to be modified slightly. The adapter plates are cut from Wiley Plates.

H20skeefreek
04-03-2007, 10:17 PM
Didn't mean to post the picture with "The Dawg" in the way.

88 PS190
04-04-2007, 11:26 PM
now that is more interesting,

Voile front and rear barrels.

Which is a good choice, the early fogman releases were small in diameter and that would load up.

Have you worked out your tension yet?

I believe the fogman method was to strike the boot sideways and see if it popped loose.

Hope they work well for you, keep an eye on the buckles.

Are you going to stick with Goode liners? or get some intuitions?

H20skeefreek
04-05-2007, 07:28 AM
I believe these are the same liners used by Goode. When they need replaced, I'll get intuitions.

I went with the Voile barrels, b/c they are only $20 each. Fogman wants $200 for the pair, and the new ones weren't going to work with my toe blocks anyway, so they were going to have to be modified. I figured if I was modifying them anyway, I might as well go beefier and save some $$.

I think I have the tension worked out, we'll find out. You load the fogmans by sliding them in from the side, so I've worked it out that you can slide them in from the side, but sliding them out from the side takes some muscle.

H20skeefreek
04-05-2007, 07:34 AM
When the buckles go, I'll replace the whole boot with some "Europa" rollerblades, they are cheap and I've seen them used several times. Though they'll become less "frankenbinding" since I won't have a mix of all three hardshell systems.