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bfinley
11-05-2004, 08:52 AM
Check it out:

http://www.stanford.edu/~jrv/true-colors.pdf

h20_skidog
11-05-2004, 11:49 AM
Also check out the County by County map:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 11:58 AM
Hmmm.... seems like most of the areas that are blue are those with a high concentration of well respected universities....

NeilM
11-05-2004, 12:15 PM
hooo boy!:eek:

You guys just don't quit, do you....? Election's over.. The guy with the most votes, both popular and electoral, was the guy who won..

I suppose it's kind of reassuring that the most powerful nation in the world isn't apathetic about who's in charge, but....

isn't it time to get back to fun stuff? You know: women (and men, for the few female members), wine, song, boats, cars, toys...:banana:

east tx skier
11-05-2004, 12:18 PM
Neil, I couldn't agree more.

Scott, LOL (after checking the Texas map and seeing that Travis County, where UT Austin is located) was Blue 70/30.

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 12:29 PM
It was nothing more than an observation (noticed in large part because Austin, TX sticks out from the rest of TX). Make of it what you will...

Ric
11-05-2004, 12:32 PM
academia vs real world?

dmac
11-05-2004, 12:34 PM
academia vs real world?
Real world wins.

Amen Neil, back to the MC business at hand.

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 12:45 PM
Did a little research because I was curious. Here's a map I made from 2000 Census data (see http://factfinder.census.gov/home/saff/main.html?_lang=en). It shows the percentage of the adult population with a Bachelor's degree or higher. It seems to mirror the voting map pretty closely...

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 12:48 PM
Here's the legend for the map


If you get a chance you should definitely check out the census data and the tools they have. You can learn all sorts of neat things about the U.S. It's amazing how many different types of data they collect. And did you know that the Census TIGER data is what most of your GPS mapping software and Mapquest use? I guess I get excited because this is one gov't department that actually seems to be spending our money well and also supports a lot of good U.S. industries.

bfinley
11-05-2004, 01:08 PM
http://www.esri.com/industries/elections/business/uspres_election2004.html

Click on View Map Animation

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 01:16 PM
ESRI is a really cool company. I wrote my graduate thesis using some of their products and continue to work with them. It's amazing how much more powerful information can be when it's tied to a map. They had some interesting maps of attributes I never considered.

bfinley
11-05-2004, 01:21 PM
It is very cool stuff. I work for a GIS consulting firm in Wisconsin.

sfitzgerald351
11-05-2004, 01:33 PM
Cool. You probably know David Hart at the University of Wisconsin then. I doubt he remembers me, but he gave me some great advice on my thesis. See http://massbay.mit.edu/ and click on the eSite Mapping Tool link for an online demo. I didn't actually do the Internet development since internet mapping was in it's infancy when I was in school, but what Christiaan did was to expand on my work and move it to the internet domain.

bfinley
11-05-2004, 02:19 PM
I do know Dave Hart. I worked for the UW GIS lab as an undergraduate and still run into him occasionally. Small world. By the way Scott, I found the openlettertothepresident.org site very interesting and passed it on to a few people.

jimmer2880
11-08-2004, 06:01 AM
Very small world... I support ESRI products daily. They sure can do some real neat stuff

mgurley
11-08-2004, 07:18 AM
I took a GIS class using ESRI products in college and have never used it since.

jake
11-08-2004, 05:59 PM
A post comparing those that voted for the President to slave owners is unbelievable, unnecessary, and absolutely offensive. Don't care what side of the wake you're on.

Can we PLEASE let the politics go and get back to boats, beer and women?

sfitzgerald351
11-08-2004, 06:22 PM
Wohaaaa. This thread had basically died and then someone comes and stirs up the pot! :eek: And I was just getting excited about meeting some fellow GIS gurus out there.

/flame suit on/

JimN
11-08-2004, 09:46 PM
Jake- a website actually made that comparison? Did they also recommend reparations, too?

I hate to keep this going, but here in Milwaukee on election day, about 20 vans rented by the Republican "Get Out The Vote" people had slashed tires, first thing in the AM. Interesting group of people involved. Among others, was the son of a Democratic mayoral candidate (who lost in the primary) and happened to be the acting mayor since the previous incumbent resigned early after an affair was brought out in public. Also involved was the son of the new Democratic Representative. And somewhere this fall, there was a video showing blacks with fire hoses turned on them so they couldn't vote saying something to the effect that "This is how they used to keep you from voting. Don't let them do it again". I went out the next day and found a card that was hanging on my doorknob that was from the Democrats telling me that if "the Republicans in green jackets try to keep me from voting,....." Talk about paranoid!

I think all election workers should be required to write the Pledge of Allegiance and explain what it all means. One nation, indivisible? My butt! When two parties are so against each other, there's no way unity will happen and at that point, we may as well forget them doing what's in the best interest of the country.

jpattigr
11-08-2004, 11:18 PM
This topic brought to mind the classic old proverb:

If your under 30 and not a Liberal, you don't have a heart.

If your over 30 and not a conservative, you don't have a brain!!

Just thought!

Knoxes
11-09-2004, 12:25 AM
Jake- a website actually made that comparison? Did they also recommend reparations, too?

I hate to keep this going, but here in Milwaukee on election day, about 20 vans rented by the Republican "Get Out The Vote" people had slashed tires, first thing in the AM. Interesting group of people involved. Among others, was the son of a Democratic mayoral candidate (who lost in the primary) and happened to be the acting mayor since the previous incumbent resigned early after an affair was brought out in public. Also involved was the son of the new Democratic Representative. And somewhere this fall, there was a video showing blacks with fire hoses turned on them so they couldn't vote saying something to the effect that "This is how they used to keep you from voting. Don't let them do it again". I went out the next day and found a card that was hanging on my doorknob that was from the Democrats telling me that if "the Republicans in green jackets try to keep me from voting,....." Talk about paranoid!

I think all election workers should be required to write the Pledge of Allegiance and explain what it all means. One nation, indivisible? My butt! When two parties are so against each other, there's no way unity will happen and at that point, we may as well forget them doing what's in the best interest of the country.


Jim - I think there's a lot of fear out there right now with the minorities, non-believers (agnostics and atheists), pro-choicers and basic liberals. I think they feel very threatened by the perception that the administration is forwarding an agenda that will strip them of their rights. I think they fear a theocracy of the upper-middle class white man - something they've been fighting all their lives. There are a lot of fundamentals at stake over the next four years, and I'm not talking tax breaks. They're going to some extreme measures, feeling that the situation is slipping away from them. What many of them don't realize is that the democratic process worked, and worked brilliantly, and that alone should assuade their fears. BTW, the GOP office in Raleigh was nearly fire-bombed last week and left with plenty of damage from some fringe wackos.

sfitzgerald351
11-09-2004, 12:49 PM
Just remember that one of the biggest powers Bush has at the moment is the power to appoint Supreme Court justices. With an all Republican house/senate we're likely to see some more conservative appointees to the bench in the next 4 years (tipping the balance that is there at the moment) and that will affect American rights/policy for years to come.

Ric
11-09-2004, 01:37 PM
I'm aware of the intent of the maps but what I see in the red is the kind of fearless individualism that made this country the best place on earth.
What I see in blue is not concentrated areas near academia as mentioned here but rather concentrated areas of urbanites waiting for the next "program", "plan" or "handout". They vote in fear.
Even still, the red areas had many votes for the blue guy and vice versa.
The next four years shall be interesting.

sfitzgerald351
11-09-2004, 02:22 PM
Urban areas? Interesting thought. Doesn't explain Dallas, Oklahoma City, etc.... but possible.

I wonder what the distribution of voters was (as far as who voted or not, not the candidate) as far as economic and/or educational status. I don't think there is a higher proportion of people in Boston looking for a handout (or taking one) than say, rural Tennessee. But I don't really know.

Knoxes
11-09-2004, 02:23 PM
[QUOTE=Ric]I'm aware of the intent of the maps but what I see in the red is the kind of fearless individualism that made this country the best place on earth.
What I see in blue is not concentrated areas near academia as mentioned here but rather concentrated areas of urbanites waiting for the next "program", "plan" or "handout". They vote in fear.
QUOTE]

Ric - this makes absolutely no sense at all. I mean, what do you base this opinion on? Ever heard of the Farm Bill?

JimN
11-09-2004, 02:31 PM
Scott- the most likely justice to leave (one way or another) is Rehnquist and he's conservative already. O'connor has some health issues too, but I don't know that she's on her way out. Bush can appoint all he wants but they still need to be approved and we all know how smoothly that can go, especially if the other side doesn't want that appointee in there.

Ric
11-09-2004, 03:01 PM
knoxes it's not making sense to the dems yet either. The next four years will be interesting indeed.
What are the states with the largest metropolitan populations? They are blue in these maps.
Is that to say that there are absolutely no bush supporters in these states or even in these urban areas? No..

It's admittedly different here fitz, there is a whole lot of land and these cities are spread out much further than you might see in the northeast. For instance there are many issues the city has on the ballot that many of us cannot vote on due to our proximity. We all still are affected by the economics of the large city but we don't live or vote in it. Houston, Dallas Ok City, KC, possibly Atlanta, Charlotte & Nashville all fall into this category wouldnt you agree?

Knoxes
11-09-2004, 03:18 PM
Ric - I'm addressing your point of "urbanites waiting for the next "program", "plan" or "handout". They vote in fear." On what do you base this?

Ric
11-09-2004, 04:01 PM
You mean you are addressing what I said I see knoxes.
I look at cities filled with public transportation, public housing, public common areas, heavy regulations and I see a concentrations of those who look to Government to take care of them. Is that ALL of them? No Are the concentrations of those people higher? Yes
I think it's easier to instill fear into these concentrations.
Does that make sense?
Dems chattering this week are still taking an elitist view of the red states and won't admit that they don't know what Americans want.
If you're asking me to quote some study, I won't. I told you what I see, remember?

Knoxes
11-09-2004, 04:27 PM
You mean you are addressing what I said I see knoxes.
I look at cities filled with public transportation, public housing, public common areas, heavy regulations and I see a concentrations of those who look to Government to take care of them. Is that ALL of them? No Are the concentrations of those people higher? Yes
I think it's easier to instill fear into these concentrations.
Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. It makes about as much sense as the same generalizations the left make that Republicans rarely graduate high school because Bush carried Arkansas (he did, didn't he?).

Dems chattering this week are still taking an elitist view of the red states and won't admit that they don't know what Americans want.


Now this makes sense, and I think you're dead-on here. Accordingly, so do many of the pundits.

Krystof's opine last Thursday hit the nail on the head.

Knoxes
11-09-2004, 04:37 PM
ON a side note, I just wanna say that I've never been able to pull off the split quote before, and, well, I'm kinda proud of myself. :D

it's the little things...

jimmer2880
11-10-2004, 06:28 AM
Wohaaaa. This thread had basically died and then someone comes and stirs up the pot! :eek: And I was just getting excited about meeting some fellow GIS gurus out there.

/flame suit on/
I don't claim to be a GIS'er... just a guy who supports GIS folks. It is really amazing what those products can do.

Ric
11-10-2004, 09:45 AM
No, it doesn't. It makes about as much sense as the same generalizations the left make that Republicans rarely graduate high school because Bush carried Arkansas (he did, didn't he?).

Now this makes sense, and I think you're dead-on here. Accordingly, so do many of the pundits.

Krystof's opine last Thursday hit the nail on the head.

Knox, you frequently misunderstand me. Metropolitan areas don't have higher concentrations of liberals? C'mon?

Ok what is GIS?

mgurley
11-10-2004, 11:05 AM
GIS = Geographical Information Systems

It is a layered mapping software with the ability to link databases of information to specific areas on the map.

GIS 'ers please excuse the extremely simplified definition of a highly complex, extremely useful peice of software. As I said I took the class in college and have not used it since.

mgurley
11-10-2004, 11:09 AM
This web site should be able to give a much better representation than the shred job that I did.


http://www.gis.com/

or even better

http://www.gis.com/whatisgis/whatisgis.pdf

Knoxes
11-10-2004, 02:35 PM
Knox, you frequently misunderstand me. Metropolitan areas don't have higher concentrations of liberals? C'mon?

Ok what is GIS?

Yes, I do frequently not understand you. ;). Yes, I think you're right, urban areas are generally more Democratic. It's the connection with the government handouts that doesn't make any sense. I mean, farming in America has been on the dole for decades and wouldn't even exist without government handouts. Who has more to lose?

sfitzgerald351
11-10-2004, 03:06 PM
I guess the question is why do urban areas have more Democrats? I'm not convinced it's because of government services. I noticed a pattern of education, but that might be explained by the higher numbers of people in urban areas... (though the map I did was %'s so maybe not). I'm sure if we thought about it we could list a good 20 factors that might contribute to urban/rural D vs R observation. The question is: what is the factor most responsible for the causation...? Don't know the answer, but curious.

Ric
11-10-2004, 03:27 PM
knox, If I follow your comment, then why would all those rural people vote against their handouts? Vote themselves out of existance? Maybe they aren't so fearful of losing this supposed sustenance being handed down from on high?

Remember my comment was that I see fear being built up by the left. You do see that right? There are larger CONCENTRATIONS of population in urban areas depending on this public money, you do see that right?
I'll add that is why it's tough for reps to win in union states like MI & OH. There is a false level of fear spread through those families that they cannot make it without certain institutions to help them.

Ric
11-10-2004, 03:31 PM
Fitz, we might also see a change over the last 20 or so years because I seem to remember in my lifetime, the rural areas typically being democrats (or at least they thought they were)

Knoxes
11-10-2004, 05:52 PM
The question is: what is the factor most responsible for the causation...? Don't know the answer, but curious.

The first one to admit this is the one who makes the most sense. There are way too many variables and inconsistencies in the data from this last election to pull any singular plausible explanation.

knox, If I follow your comment, then why would all those rural people vote against their handouts? Vote themselves out of existance? Maybe they aren't so fearful of losing this supposed sustenance being handed down from on high?


I don't know - maybe there's a correlation between this and education levels.

Remember my comment was that I see fear being built up by the left. You do see that right?


Sure, I saw your comment, but I still don't get it. I mean, if anything, they're afraid of being drawn into an international conflict that sacrifices American soldiers for who knows what reason, they afraid of losing rights and privledges, they're afraid of back-alley abortions, they're afraid of saddling our children with massive debt loads and a filthy environment, they're afraid of isolationism, theocracy and a government by the Christian white man, for the Christian white man. I think losing a bus route is probably the last thing on their minds in the ballot box.

damn, that needed some background patriotic music!! :D

Ric
11-10-2004, 06:30 PM
you really think that?

JimN
11-10-2004, 09:29 PM
If you're saying that when there is a high concentration of people who depend on public assistance (of some kind) in cities, that these people will vote democratic, that's usually the case. The Democrats are the ones who go along with liberal application of government power and handouts are a big part of this. The majority of people who are on welfare, foodstamps, etc are not necessarily well educated and unless they figure out that for their own good (and for the good of the people around them), they should make better decisions in their lives, they won't get out of that situation. If they don't have enough skills, training and education to get better jobs, they won't be able to afford to get out and the cycle continues. Since the Republicans don't generally believe in throwing money at problems, welfare recipients see them as "the other side" and will seldom get their votes.

The farm subsidies are a different situation. Most of these are/were to keep farmers from producing crops that were already in abundance. To be honest, since there have been starving people around the world for many years, I think more of the excess crops could have gone to alleviate this, but when a country is trying to wield it's power, giving things away isn't going to get the desired results unless the gifts come with conditions. However, if there is an overabundance of goods and the demand doesn't increase proportionately, the price drops. If the price drops and farms fail, the government's burden increases. If there's farmland with no production and it's unlikely that it will be subdivided, the tax base suffers, especially if the farms are in foreclosure. It's a good way to buy farmland cheaply, but if it's in the middle of nowhere, what will be done with it? Most of the farmers I have known are/were conservative. I suspect most farm owners in the US still are, judging by the voting results.

As an example, in most elections in WI, the largest cities vote Democratic while the 'burbs and outlying areas vote Republican. Milwaukee has been a manufacturing hub for a long time, although that's changing. The downtown is having a resurgence of people moving back, but most are moving into lofts, condos and apartments. Many of the city dwellers who don't live downtown are low(er) income people who can't afford to move out to the suburbs. Many rent and can't afford to buy a house. Some don't want to buy a house. The property taxes have gone up so much in certain areas that some can't even afford to live in their houses.

As far as cities with high union membership, I don't remember meeting many union members who are Republican. It's Labor vs Management, Blue collar vs White collar. With all of the fear mongering, it sounds like the ones buying into it have realized that they have little or no control of their lives as it is, and if there's a risk of losing ground in their standard of living, "It HAS to be someone elses' fault. They're trying to take it all away from us!"

JimN
11-10-2004, 09:47 PM
knoxes- I think it's more likely that saddling their children with a massive debt load is the last thing on their minds, not losing a bus route. It seems that nobody here is saying exactly who lives in these cities. I'm not talking about upscale areas, I mean 'in the city'. There will always be a percentage of these people who are honest, hard working, intelligent, with good values, but who can't get into a better situation for whatever reason. There is also the middle group, who are getting by but not moving up very fast. Then there are the others, who drag everything down to their level. These are the people who need to start thinking about the results of what they do and stop thinking that society owes them a life. There are opportunities that these people have no clue about because they're too busy believing that they're all victims. I'm not picking on any particular group here, this is just my observation.

Knoxes
11-10-2004, 10:06 PM
you really think that?

which part - the patriotic music? :D

Knoxes
11-10-2004, 10:11 PM
Then there are the others, who drag everything down to their level. These are the people who need to start thinking about the results of what they do and stop thinking that society owes them a life. There are opportunities that these people have no clue about because they're too busy believing that they're all victims. I'm not picking on any particular group here, this is just my observation.

yeah, they exist and I'm willing to bet they don't vote too often. And when they do, I'm willing to bet they don't make up one tenth of a percent of an electorate (I'm talking about your last group), so why they vote isn't really even relevant. We could just as easily speculate on why Protestant sheep farmers voted for Bush, but it ain't gonna sway an election and its probably not representative of the whole. More importantly, how do we really know those sheep aren't Catholic?

And you may view the farm bill differently, but it's really not. It's farmer welfare, plain and simple. You could take almost everything you said, switch the characters and present the exact same argument.

dang, y'all are gonna make me do some research, aren't ya.

Knoxes
11-10-2004, 10:56 PM
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005117.php

#

Among those who think government should do more to solve problems, Bush's support was up 10 points. I'm not really sure what to make of this, but I guess it means that Bush really is perceived as a big government conservative.

#

Finally, his support was up by 10 points in urban areas and down by 2 points in rural communities, including a surprising 9 point decrease from residents of small towns. This goes against a whole bunch of conventional wisdom (including mine) about the growing urban/rural divide in America. If anything, it seems to have narrowed in this election.

Ok, now I'm cornfused - what were we talking about?

And yes, Ric, I believe that - just as much as you believe that conservatives voted for Bush because of his record. Both sides will point to the other and say "look at what they're doing - they must be idiots" and convince themselves, through their own propoganda machines that they're right. For example, I posted a thread a little while back noting the inconsistencies with W and the typical GOP platform - and how did people respond? "ya knoxes, right on! now I'm gonna go vote for Kerry!!!!!!! ???????" or "Maybe cause as far as Bush sways from the original GOP pronciples, he ain't no where as bad as Kerry." or " YES! (voting against Kerry)". Now I'm supposed to believe you guys examined the issues, weighed the candidates and made an educated, informed decision??? And you're gonna suggest that Dems vote out of fear?? Incredulous.

JimN
11-11-2004, 12:00 AM
I don't know if I would call the farm subsidies welfare. It's paying them to not grow their regular crops, not bail them out when they can't make it work. They came up with a way to keep the market forces from punching the bottom out of the prices for those crops. I don't know who came up with the idea of paying the farmers for doing nothing, but they should have just switched to growing something different. It doesn't make much sense to me that the farmers would keep growing crops when it would lower the price and cut their own throats just because they didn't want to change. Wouldn't have been such a sweet deal, though. It's just the government's way of making sure there's production, but not making the farmers lose money. Same thing as subsidizing the dairy farmers now when the prices go too low. We import enough now. With as many farms and the potential for cheap labor as there is in the US, I don't think it's best that we import most of our food, too.

At this point, I don't think someone from the far left or right is going to be elected but there is a difference between morally liberal or conservative and fiscally liberal or conservative. We just need to find someone who is a good mix of both, for the greater good. I would much rather see people get assistance with the stipulation that they get their GED and/or additional training so they can get a better job than just pay them to not work and keep cranking out kids so they get more money.

Knoxes
11-11-2004, 09:56 AM
At this point, I don't think someone from the far left or right is going to be elected but there is a difference between morally liberal or conservative and fiscally liberal or conservative. We just need to find someone who is a good mix of both, for the greater good. I would much rather see people get assistance with the stipulation that they get their GED and/or additional training so they can get a better job than just pay them to not work and keep cranking out kids so they get more money.

Yep. I concur.

Now about dem religious sheep...

Ric
11-11-2004, 10:21 AM
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005117.php



Ok, now I'm cornfused - what were we talking about?

And yes, Ric, I believe that - just as much as you believe that conservatives voted for Bush because of his record. Both sides will point to the other and say "look at what they're doing - they must be idiots" and convince themselves, through their own propoganda machines that they're right. For example, I posted a thread a little while back noting the inconsistencies with W and the typical GOP platform - and how did people respond? "ya knoxes, right on! now I'm gonna go vote for Kerry!!!!!!! ???????" or "Maybe cause as far as Bush sways from the original GOP pronciples, he ain't no where as bad as Kerry." or " YES! (voting against Kerry)". Now I'm supposed to believe you guys examined the issues, weighed the candidates and made an educated, informed decision??? And you're gonna suggest that Dems vote out of fear?? Incredulous.

You're getting nuttier as we go here knox and I LOVE IT.
It's apparent that you are way off from what the "average" american was thinking when he got up to vote 11/2. You have your beliefs knox, but they are far from mainstream.
My guy won. Yeeehaw
I will enjoy the next four years and the craziness you and yours will push.

bfinley
11-11-2004, 12:02 PM
Since this seems to be a pretty hot topic, check out this link:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/07/blue_state_to_reds/

sfitzgerald351
11-11-2004, 01:05 PM
Pretty amusing... :uglyhamme

JimN
11-11-2004, 02:41 PM
President Kerry? I thought he was, and is a senator. I sure hope they can save me from myself. They sound pretty sure that all Republicans are white trash, illiterate and poor.

Stritt
11-11-2004, 02:56 PM
This really is to funny...........Funny thing is that the democrats are blaming the gay marriage issues on the loss. Then the gay rights activist are saying don't blame us. Bill Marhes(sp??) panel said the problem was they went to far to the center and needed to return to their base if they were going to get back in the "house"..........Really, to funny.

Fact....Like it or not..

African-Americans vote heavily democrat.( I'm not afraid to decipher the code game going on in previous post)

George Bush won by over 3 millions votes and won the electorate.

John Kerry never stood his ground and therfore lost.

Republicans have won more seats in the house and senate.

Now, if I were a democrat (thankfully I am Not). Instead of doing the blame game of 2000 with a new version. I would look deep inside and make some changes. If you think you need to move to the far left.....Go.....But you will continue to lose elections. You want Howard Dean to run the party? Elect him, I will thank you now. You want to come on tv and talk radio and tell 51% of the voting public how stupid we are? Go ahead, but you aren't making any new friends. You want to tell the President, Senate and House that because you lost, we need to
do as you say? Wake up, no gonna happen captain. Here is an idea, win a election then push YOUR agenda. Until then, we aren't going to accept YOUR agenda, get over it. I have come to a realization that this "nasty" talk is not going to end. So, that is my opinion. Funny thing is, since November 1st, my 401k has gone up near 5%. Stocks look good, economy is getting better and we are finally going after some bad guys in Iraq. I am liking my President... By the way Ric, I was in Houston this morning. Nice day today, got back to Orlando for rain.

Why couldn't I let this go :rolleyes:

Ok, one last thought (my opinion).

This country is the best place to live in the world. I do not hate my democrat friends and neighbors. As a matter of fact, most of them cringe at the far left, just as I do for the far right. I do believe that we
as a society can get through. I for one do not understand how religion is worse the lies. I do not believe that religion should be a part of government. Then again, I don't think the ACLU can make changes that were part of the founding fathers feelings towards religion. We as a country honor and respect all religions. What I hear from the far left is they are tired of having religion shoved down their throat. Maybe I am blind, but I don't see it happening. I for one am tired of having any reference to GOD removed from our countries heritage.

Fact:

Many of our decendants came to America to escape religious persecution.

If you don't like GOD, don't spend the money you are paid with. Burn it. throw it away or better yet give it to the poor and join the far left who want to move to Canada and enjoy the socialized medicine. Alec Baldwin said after the 2000 election he was moving.......never had the *alls to do it though. Why now after 227 years are you wanting to remove all reference of God from society? God is on our money and our pledge. When will you be happy? When all references to religion is removed from soceity? If you didn't have this to complain about what would you do? What will be your next target?

mgurley
11-11-2004, 03:08 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 11:32 AM
You're getting nuttier as we go here knox and I LOVE IT.
It's apparent that you are way off from what the "average" american was thinking when he got up to vote 11/2. You have your beliefs knox, but they are far from mainstream.
My guy won. Yeeehaw
I will enjoy the next four years and the craziness you and yours will push.

This makes no sense at all. But part of it is the intellectual equivalent of an elementary school playgroung taunt. Nice. Address the issues or don't address at all.

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 12:09 PM
This really is to funny...........Funny thing is that the democrats are blaming the gay marriage issues on the loss. Then the gay rights activist are saying don't blame us. Bill Marhes(sp??) panel said the problem was they went to far to the center and needed to return to their base if they were going to get back in the "house"..........Really, to funny.

Fact....Like it or not..

African-Americans vote heavily democrat.( I'm not afraid to decipher the code game going on in previous post)

George Bush won by over 3 millions votes and won the electorate.

John Kerry never stood his ground and therfore lost.

Republicans have won more seats in the house and senate.

Now, if I were a democrat (thankfully I am Not). Instead of doing the blame game of 2000 with a new version. I would look deep inside and make some changes. If you think you need to move to the far left.....Go.....But you will continue to lose elections. You want Howard Dean to run the party? Elect him, I will thank you now. You want to come on tv and talk radio and tell 51% of the voting public how stupid we are? Go ahead, but you aren't making any new friends. You want to tell the President, Senate and House that because you lost, we need to
do as you say? Wake up, no gonna happen captain. Here is an idea, win a election then push YOUR agenda. Until then, we aren't going to accept YOUR agenda, get over it. I have come to a realization that this "nasty" talk is not going to end. So, that is my opinion. Funny thing is, since November 1st, my 401k has gone up near 5%. Stocks look good, economy is getting better and we are finally going after some bad guys in Iraq. I am liking my President... By the way Ric, I was in Houston this morning. Nice day today, got back to Orlando for rain.

I think you're probably right on almost all these points, 35th, but I think people are just looking for an explanation for the results and I don't think there is a clear cut one. I'm not complaining - I've made it perfectly clear that I think the process worked brilliantly. The Dems have definitely lost touch - that's exactly what Krystof was saying in the editorial I noted earlier.

Why couldn't I let this go :rolleyes:

Ok, one last thought (my opinion).

This country is the best place to live in the world. I do not hate my democrat friends and neighbors. As a matter of fact, most of them cringe at the far left, just as I do for the far right. I do believe that we
as a society can get through. I for one do not understand how religion is worse the lies. I do not believe that religion should be a part of government. Then again, I don't think the ACLU can make changes that were part of the founding fathers feelings towards religion. We as a country honor and respect all religions. What I hear from the far left is they are tired of having religion shoved down their throat. Maybe I am blind, but I don't see it happening. I for one am tired of having any reference to GOD removed from our countries heritage.

Fact:

Many of our decendants came to America to escape religious persecution.

If you don't like GOD, don't spend the money you are paid with. Burn it. throw it away or better yet give it to the poor and join the far left who want to move to Canada and enjoy the socialized medicine. Alec Baldwin said after the 2000 election he was moving.......never had the *alls to do it though. Why now after 227 years are you wanting to remove all reference of God from society? God is on our money and our pledge. When will you be happy? When all references to religion is removed from soceity? If you didn't have this to complain about what would you do? What will be your next target?

Yeah, I basically agree. I just want the US to be respectful of all religions (including atheists) and I don't wanna set any precedents for a less tolerant religion (Islam, Judiasm, ...possibly) to capitalize on some time down the road. I think it's a tricky issue, but I'd hate to see this country become a theocracy under any belief system. So I think we have to tread lightly. And I don't know exactly what "tread lightly" means, but I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way if that $5 bill said "In Allah We Trust".

Ric
11-12-2004, 12:56 PM
This makes no sense at all. But part of it is the intellectual equivalent of an elementary school playgroung taunt. Nice. Address the issues or don't address at all.

knox you've not understood half of what I've already wasted my time posting.
The "issue" which prompted my "taunt" was your going on an extremist rant which deserved no response & reminded me I don't need to argue with you.

Why? My candidate won on issues that matter to the majority.

To have my itellect called into question by someone with your views doesn't surprise me at all. In fact it takes a 10 minute flip thru the papers, the web or tv news shows to see that it's part of the new liberal playbook. You'll need to work on that as well.

Election's over. Enjoy the next four years my friend.

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 01:40 PM
knox you've not understood half of what I've already wasted my time posting.
The "issue" which prompted my "taunt" was your going on an extremist rant which deserved no response & reminded me I don't need to argue with you.

Why? My candidate won on issues that matter to the majority.

To have my itellect called into question by someone with your views doesn't surprise me at all. In fact it takes a 10 minute flip thru the papers, the web or tv news shows to see that it's part of the new liberal playbook. You'll need to work on that as well.

Election's over. Enjoy the next four years my friend.

You started it! 8p

Stritt
11-12-2004, 01:45 PM
"but I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way if that $5 bill said "In Allah We Trust".

No sense in debating a hypothetical. It says "In God we trust". Not which God.....just God. Every citizen of the USA has the right to their own religion or lack of, that is what makes this a GREAT country.

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 02:11 PM
"but I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way if that $5 bill said "In Allah We Trust".

No sense in debating a hypothetical. It says "In God we trust". Not which God.....just God. Every citizen of the USA has the right to their own religion or lack of, that is what makes this a GREAT country.

Hypotheticals are important, 35th. We have to consider the possible implications of our current decisions. Every decision we make right now provides a precedent for some wacko to bastardize in the future into something that we never meant it to be. Let's call it preventative maintenance.

Stritt
11-12-2004, 03:01 PM
Not in this case, its not.

Fact:

Currency states "In God We Trust"


Now, why debate a hypothetical? What is going to be learned? How will it affect the future? Don't give me any radical answers, please.


Here is how I took your response....

"Hypotheticals are important, 35th."....True, but not in this case.


"We have to consider the possible implications of our current decisions."
......Most normal, sane individuals do.

"Every decision we make right now provides a precedent for some wacko to bastardize in the future into something that we never meant it to be."
......Like who?..... This is code word crap, say what you really mean instead of making all encompassing statements. By the way, you lose all credibility in a debate using phrases like "for some wako to bastardize....." With your history of post......is the wako.....Bush or us Republicans?

"Let's call it preventative maintenance."....I call this a waste of time.

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 03:45 PM
Not in this case, its not.

Fact:

Currency states "In God We Trust"


Now, why debate a hypothetical? What is going to be learned? How will it affect the future? Don't give me any radical answers, please.


Here is how I took your response....

"Hypotheticals are important, 35th."....True, but not in this case.


"We have to consider the possible implications of our current decisions."
......Most normal, sane individuals do.

"Every decision we make right now provides a precedent for some wacko to bastardize in the future into something that we never meant it to be."
......Like who?..... This is code word crap, say what you really mean instead of making all encompassing statements. By the way, you lose all credibility in a debate using phrases like "for some wako to bastardize....." With your history of post......is the wako.....Bush or us Republicans?

"Let's call it preventative maintenance."....I call this a waste of time.

Considering the possible implications IS debating the hypothetics, 35th.

Like who, you ask? How about McCarthy? Castro? Saddam?

I. DID. NOT. say that. I didn't even infer that. And I don't believe that. I DO NOT consider mainstream Republicans to be wackos. Like someone said earlier, I think both extremes are dangerous. And I used that term to make it clear that only a extremist would consider such measures. If I meant to say Bush or the GOP, I assure you, I woulda said so.

OhioProstar
11-12-2004, 04:06 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Stritt
11-12-2004, 04:24 PM
Dictators vs elected officials....that is the difference in your example.

I feel assured we do not have a government ran by dictators........

Read carefully...."Here is how I took your response....". That means, the remarks were my thoughts...not yours.

This will be my last post regarding this issue, not because I am afraid but rather I fail to see your point. No disrespect Knoxes. This is a classic example of the great democracy we live in, we can disagree and not worry about being murdered over our opinion. ;)

Knoxes
11-12-2004, 05:05 PM
Dictators vs elected officials....that is the difference in your example.

I feel assured we do not have a government ran by dictators........

Read carefully...."Here is how I took your response....". That means, the remarks were my thoughts...not yours.

This will be my last post regarding this issue, not because I am afraid but rather I fail to see your point. No disrespect Knoxes. This is a classic example of the great democracy we live in, we can disagree and not worry about being murdered over our opinion. ;)

Well, not to nitpick, but McCarthy was elected. And, yes, it's unlikely, but I always want to wary of any one person too powerful in the US, and I don't want to completely rule out the possibility arising as the result of a police state due to a massive terrorist attack, just as an example. Again, just trying to keep the possibilities in mind. The one thing I can guarantee is change. I just like to be aware and conscious that it might not be slow, and it might not be pleasant. 9/11 is a perfect example.

And that's fine, but if you're gonna post your opinion, and I hope that you always do (I enjoy it), expect to be challenged.

And we've been over so many things in this thread that I don't know if there's just one point, other than most of you disagree with me about something. :D And it's a good thing I don't take it personally.