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View Full Version : Surge Brakes on 92 MC trailer


stevoh20
11-02-2004, 12:02 AM
I purchased a 92 MC Barefoot 200 with 92 MC trailer. I've had an issue that everytime I pull away from a stop, the tongue of the surge brake mechanism bangs when it slides to the forward position. Not having any instructions, I finally opened the black cap on the top, to find the internal cap covering the brake cylinder reservoir. It was dry and rusty looking. I then climbed under the trailer and sucked contaminated fluid out of the lines from each of the bleeders. I tried to blow air through the line back to the main reservior, but air would not pass through, no matter the tongue position.

What needs to happen to fix the issue? If parts are needed, where do I get them from, MC? If I get the lines full of fluid, will that eventually eliminate the banging I get from the tongue sliding forward and back? Is ther more involved than the master cylinder too?

Thanks

StevoH2O

jake
11-02-2004, 09:16 AM
The most likely problem (cause I had this same thing on my 93' trailer) is that you have a rusted brake line. If you look at the line, you will see that it is a normal brake line running inside a black rubber tube. Your brake line is likely broken inside the line. It's a bit hard to find, cause the rubber will make the system hold pressure somewhat, but then when you get in an actual braking situation, it will squirt out.

I ended up replacing my entire brake system part by part. First put in a new MC (about $70 from trailers by dorsey), then found the leak in the line so I replaced the line with stainless (NAPA, $15). Then found out the calipers were bad at the wheels, so I said screw it and just bought complete new wheel units (Northern Tool $100). I think everything else went bad cause the system sat empty and dry for so long (previous owner).

If I were you, I'd just go spend the $200 and replace everything. It will take you about 3 hrs rather than 2 weeks like it took me as I disassembled and reassembled, filled and bleed the system 4 times for each new part I replaced.

By the way, this is a well known problem. There are lot's of threads on it on the old board if you want to go back and do a search.

Thrall
11-02-2004, 10:30 AM
The hitch is banging back and forth because there's no fluid pressure in the mastercylinder. The above response is accurate. Could be any or all parts of the brake system. Like said above, you're best to get a new master cyl and wheel cylinders. Make sure you bleed alot of fluid through to push out all the old crap and flush any rust, etc out.
It will not do any immediate damage to your trailer to run like this, other than lack of brakes. It sounds worse than it is.

east tx skier
11-02-2004, 11:37 AM
They didn't wrap the brake lines for too long. I had rusted lines on my 1993 trailer as well. Spend a few extra bucks and buy stainless steel lines.

dwe
11-02-2004, 08:36 PM
I have an '03 trailer that came w/ my '95. When I got it, the tongue did what you describe. I checked it, and it was bone dry, and rusted inside. I filled the reservoir, bled the brakes, and now it seems to work fine. Seems to be holding fluid as well. I was expecting it to leak, but it hasn't so far.

stevoh20
01-30-2005, 07:01 PM
I purchased a 92 MC Barefoot 200 with 92 MC trailer. I've had an issue that everytime I pull away from a stop, the tongue of the surge brake mechanism bangs when it slides to the forward position. Not having any instructions, I finally opened the black cap on the top, to find the internal cap covering the brake cylinder reservoir. It was dry and rusty looking. I then climbed under the trailer and sucked contaminated fluid out of the lines from each of the bleeders. I tried to blow air through the line back to the main reservior, but air would not pass through, no matter the tongue position.

What needs to happen to fix the issue? If parts are needed, where do I get them from, MC? If I get the lines full of fluid, will that eventually eliminate the banging I get from the tongue sliding forward and back? Is ther more involved than the master cylinder too?

Thanks

StevoH2O
Jake:

I finally got the master cylinder out this weekend. The spring loaded system before the master cylinder is all rusted and appears shot. Did you order direct from Dorsey? Did they send the spring loaded parts and the mini shock absorber as part of the system or is all that extra? I had a heck of a time pounding out the pin that held in the cylinder. I have been taking my time soaking with WD-40.

The break line appears to pass through a steel plate before the left rear braking system. It then transfers into the flexible black line near that point. I assume it is worth replacing the black flexible line too at this time.

Also, on the sliding tongue unit, there appeared to be round, anti-friction devices in key locations. A couple of mine were badly worn. What are those items called and where can I find a couple of those?

I appreciate you help as I get the MC to tow better in the off season.

Steve Koch

jake
01-31-2005, 05:06 PM
Steve: I had a hard time getting my pins out as well. It basically took all last winter getting a fresh spray of penetrating oil once a week. After all that, I ended up just pounding the he!! out of them and ordering new ones. Only a couple bucks each, well worth it.

The master cylinder comes without the shock absorber, springs, and other parts. I was able to re-use mine. What would probably be helpful is downloading the user manual from UFP, it has a nice exploded view of all the parts so yo can order what you need.

I did replace the flexible black line back at the trailer, was able to find it at a camper store for about $15, apparently it's a pretty common part, but not carried at auto parts stores because they're trailer specific.

I'm not sure what the lubricating/slide components are called, but again the exploded view from the UFP owners manual should give you part numbers for anything you need.

I did order directly from Dorsey, I think they required COD or pay-pal, they were a lot of help getting the right stuff, and everything was shipped right away.

Also, here's a re-assembly tip that worked well for me. You need to assemble the entire actuator upside down before inserting into the trailer, but it's tough to get everything to stay put without the pins in place. I ended up cutting two wooden dowels the same length as the actuator is wide so that they could then act like the pins and hold everything in place while still allowing the assembled unit to slide into the trailer opening. Once the actuator is in place and lined up, you can slide the pins in place forcing the dowels out.

good luck!

G-man
01-31-2005, 05:24 PM
Jake

Great description: I'll add I have seen deep sockets used to hold things in place like you are using the dowels.

stevoh20
02-06-2005, 11:23 PM
Now that I have the actuator torn out, I decided to take a look at the drum brakes. Totally rusted and shot. I would estimate that they have not functioned for 5-6 years. So now the process is becoming a total replacement process.

I've researched options and expenses and it seems that I can do the following:
* Purchase galvanized brake assemblies and refinish existing drums. This would mean buying a drum actuator.
* Scrap the drums and go with SS disc brakes. This would require purchasing a disc acuator with reversing disc brake solenoid.

It sounds like the drums require yearly maintenance and you have to have a knack for adjusting properly to keep trailer straight behind you. Also, to lubricate the internal parts, it would appear that you must remove the drum which leads to the messy job of repacking etc. However this route would save $100-$150 over the disc concept. The disc assembly comes complete with bearings and annual adjustments seem minimal and lubricating only involves removing the tire.

The most affordable option for disc appears to be Tie Down 9.2" SS package. Has anyone gone this route? Do they hold up? Any other option I should consider? I did see an individual posting recommending Synthetic DOT 5 fluid as it does not absorb moisture in an "open" system as used in marine trailer applications. I will probably try this option as moisture appears to cause all the problems and failures in the system.

Thanks for any advice which will help me with the next purchase phase of this process. :worthy:

jake
02-07-2005, 05:20 PM
Stevo: I wish I would have done precisely what you are describing, ie switched to disk brakes. I believe you don't need to replace the entire actuator, you can just order the replacement "disk" master cylinder rather than a drum unit, and be sure it includes the electric reverse lockout.

I replaced my entire drum system part by part over time. Wish I would have just done the disk conversion from the get go.

stevoh20
02-07-2005, 11:20 PM
I've found out that the actuator is the same for Drum or Disc, but the Disc replacement comes with the Solenoid. I had so many parts that had rusted, that the repair bill would easily pass $90 for parts. The sales guy said for alittle more money I get the whole thing new. I'm to the point of wondering what I am saving by not replacing everything all at once. :cry: It's only money...Plus right now I don't have the MC boat gas bills hitting me between the eyes :eek:

mika
03-01-2005, 04:18 PM
I saw your questions about the DOT 5 fluid. From what i know about DOT 5 vs the others is not a ton but I have some advice. The DOT 5 can and will get wet like DOT 3 and 4 just it does not happen naturally. The biggest reason for upgrading to better fluid is to get more consistant and better braking. Usually DOT 5 is used in a motor sports area where the fluild is subjected to very high temps. Below is the boiling point of the different fluid both dry (moisture is not present) and wet (moisture is present). When the fluild hits it boiling point it seriously effect the performance of the brakes. In a trailer especially one that get submerged under water you should flush the system annually. I don't know if you have priced DOT 5 fluid but the last time I bought some it was 25.00 bucks a quart. I suggest using the fluild that the mfg spec's for the brakes and change it annually. The money you save can help pay for a tank of gas. IMO DOT 5 would be a waste of money for a trailer application. I hope this helps.





DOT 3 DOT 4 DOT 5
----- ----- -----
Dry Boiling Point 401F 446F 500F
Wet Boiling Point 284F 311F 356F

lakes Rick
03-01-2005, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=mika]I saw your questions about the DOT 5 fluid. From what i know about DOT 5 vs the others is not a ton but I have some advice. The DOT 5 can and will get wet like DOT 3 and 4 just it does not happen naturally. The biggest reason for upgrading to better fluid is to get more consistant and better braking. Usually DOT 5 is used in a motor sports area where the fluild is subjected to very high temps. Below is the boiling point of the different fluid both dry (moisture is not present) and wet (moisture is present). When the fluild hits it boiling point it seriously effect the performance of the brakes. In a trailer especially one that get submerged under water you should flush the system annually. I don't know if you have priced DOT 5 fluid but the last time I bought some it was 25.00 bucks a quart. I suggest using the fluild that the mfg spec's for the brakes and change it annually. The money you save can help pay for a tank of gas. IMO DOT 5 would be a waste of money for a trailer application. I hope this helps.





DOT 3 DOT 4 DOT 5
----- ----- -----
Dry Boiling Point 401F 446F 500F
Wet Boiling Point 284F 311F 356F[/QUOTE

A key reason alot of collector car people use it is Dot 5 will not damage paint like Dot 3 & 4 will. Spill some dot 3/4 while bleeding or get a leak and say good by to your paint....

Ryan
06-07-2006, 01:46 AM
Now that I have the actuator torn out, I decided to take a look at the drum brakes. Totally rusted and shot. I would estimate that they have not functioned for 5-6 years. So now the process is becoming a total replacement process.

I've researched options and expenses and it seems that I can do the following:
* Purchase galvanized brake assemblies and refinish existing drums. This would mean buying a drum actuator.
* Scrap the drums and go with SS disc brakes. This would require purchasing a disc acuator with reversing disc brake solenoid.

It sounds like the drums require yearly maintenance and you have to have a knack for adjusting properly to keep trailer straight behind you. Also, to lubricate the internal parts, it would appear that you must remove the drum which leads to the messy job of repacking etc. However this route would save $100-$150 over the disc concept. The disc assembly comes complete with bearings and annual adjustments seem minimal and lubricating only involves removing the tire.

The most affordable option for disc appears to be Tie Down 9.2" SS package. Has anyone gone this route? Do they hold up? Any other option I should consider? I did see an individual posting recommending Synthetic DOT 5 fluid as it does not absorb moisture in an "open" system as used in marine trailer applications. I will probably try this option as moisture appears to cause all the problems and failures in the system.

Thanks for any advice which will help me with the next purchase phase of this process. :worthy:

So, Stevoh which setup did you go for and how did it turn out?
I'm finishing up my disc brake conversion on a '93 trailer. A complete overhaul with new UFP A-60 actuator with solenoid, new lines, and TieDown Eliminator vented disc brakes.

I have laughed out loud at all of the pin pounding comments! I beat the crap out of mine with a 15 lb sledge hammer (standing on the tonnngue), dremmeled the new mushroom flange then pounded it through with a pipe. Sighhhh... I'm off to bleed the lines then test tomorrow.

MariStar-Man
09-17-2009, 11:19 PM
I am also going to have to replace my Master Cylinder. I have reservations this weekend and I'm hoping to source the Master Cylinder this weekend.

Whhile i was installing the Emergency Cable, a little brass fitting in the Master Cylinder broke off attached to a little black tube?

Is there a certian type of bleeder you can buy to do this? and where is it sourced?


Aren't Boat Trailers Great...:rolleyes:

TMCNo1
09-17-2009, 11:37 PM
I am also going to have to replace my Master Cylinder. I have reservations this weekend and I'm hoping to source the Master Cylinder this weekend.

Whhile i was installing the Emergency Cable, a little brass fitting in the Master Cylinder broke off attached to a little black tube?

Is there a certian type of bleeder you can buy to do this? and where is it sourced?


Aren't Boat Trailers Great...:rolleyes:


IIRC, the tube/fitting returns the brake fluid back to the master cylinder reservoir when the reverse solenoid opens to allow the master cylinder to collapse for back up if you have disc brakes.
UFP, http://www.ufpnet.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx, can hook you up or recommend a dealer who has the parts in your area,

Ryan
09-18-2009, 09:27 AM
I will have a lightly used UFP brake actuator with back up solenoid and disk brakes with new bearings available shortly if you're interested.