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Workin' 4 Toys
07-22-2006, 04:57 PM
Anyone have experience with sound deadening materials?

bigmac
07-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Anyone have experience with sound deadening materials?Polyurethane foam. Structural rigidity, insulation, sound deadening.

My son installed the stuff for several months in between schools. Very cool. Hard to beat it.

TNH2oSkier
07-22-2006, 10:24 PM
What room? R-13 fiberglass is fine for most aplications, home theater requires different aplication depending on construction tequniques, and materials used. Give us some more details.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-22-2006, 11:14 PM
I should have explained. This is for walls and ceilings(on the outside of the room)
The areas have drywall both sides 1/2" on 1 side, and 5/8" on the other. And insulation between.
What I need is something to completely (or as close as humanly possible) deaden the sound that I can attach to the wall/ceiling and still maintain the fire resistance of durarock.
I was thinking of added a air gap between the existing sheets and new sheets with 1X and add another layer of 1/2 or 5/8, or something along those lines.

If there is an more efficient way..............:cool:

Workin' 4 Toys
07-22-2006, 11:15 PM
What room? R-13 fiberglass is fine for most aplications, home theater requires different aplication depending on construction tequniques, and materials used. Give us some more details.
A living room backing up to a workshop.......

JimN
07-22-2006, 11:57 PM
If the drywall isn't up yet, there are a lot of ways to do this. There's a rubber membrane that can go up, you can add a layer of particle board, resiliant channel, build a box in a box (for really good isolation and much less transmission) and there's a specific type of drywall that is made for sound deadening, but it's pretty expensive.

If you can do the box in a box, you'll have the best isolation. If the workshop wall structure touches the living room wall at all, it'll tranmit a lot more sound. I assume the living room wall is up and drywalled, right? Build another wall a few inches away from it and drywall both sides of it, filling the cavity with fiberglass.

SoCalBrew
07-23-2006, 12:56 AM
One of the best thing that you can do is install a sound barrier directly to the studs and then drywall over it. A sound barrier would be something like a very heavy-very dense, malliable, vinyl type material that covers the entire room and can be nailed right to studs of any type. The thicker the material, the more sound that will be absorbed (reflected). Since you have already drywalled, you can nail this material right to the drywall, and then drywall over it again.

Another option is to create a pocket, that has an acoustic curtain in it.

The most difficult sounds to "filter out" are low frequencies, and a room that is built with stud against stud, is an amplifier for low frequencies, so if you can assemble your room with vibration mounts and isolation hangers, you greatly reduce the effects of low frequencies on your "environment".

Jim N has some really good points - especially about the box in a box. You can make another room inside a room that has a "floated floor" (easy to do) and has all of its walls supported by the floor - and attached to the outer "box" with acoustical mounts/hangers. If the structure has to be attached to another structure, attach it with vibration mounts. If your room has windows, use an acoustical window, and make sure that it is sealed properly. Also, if you have pipes running into the room, make sure the pipes are wrapped and their entrance point is properly sealed... same for electrical outlets. Sound leakage from "Utilities" can pretty much undo most of your sound proofing if you are not careful.

Here is a link to a good sound barrier for residential:

http://www.acoustiblok.com/residential.html

And here is a link to a series of sound-proofing solutions.

http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/

I can point you to plenty more if you need... as well as sound-proofing consultants.

It may all sound complicated, but it really is not, just takes a little planning.

Feel free to contact me directly... I do sound for a living, and have a bit of experience making rooms quiet.

Good luck.

JimN
07-23-2006, 10:50 AM
The membrane doesn't reflect the sound, it dissipates the energy by moving when the sound hits it and since it's very dense and flexible, it slows down rapidly. Energy wasted is converted to heat and since it's acoustic energy (low amount) and is spread over a large area, it's not a problem.

I worked for a contractor that does audio, video, lighting control, home integration, etc and we built a home theater demo space with acoustic blocking. Since it was in a commercial space, metal studs had to be used (with fiberglass between the studs) but we screwed a layer of 3/4" particle board on them, then a layer of Acoustiblok, then resilient channel, then drywall. There wasn't a lot of sound getting out of that room.

WFT- just exactly what do you plan to do in this room that you don't want the neighbors to hear, hmmm? Sicko!

Workin' 4 Toys
07-23-2006, 11:46 PM
Have you ever taken a angle grinder to a frame rail to remove slag? Or taken a dremel to a sheet of 1/4" plexi? Or drilled and 1 5/8" holes through a sheet of 18 gauge stainless? Or run a chop saw through a 2" DOM tube? Or routed a dovetail into a 6' long piece of cherry? Or tried to dial in a carb on a freshly installed 383 or maybe a 502? Or...............(well you get the point)
Well, multiply this by the fact most of it gets done between 6PM and 2AM.
I don't want the sounds in the house.
And no I will not do it out in the shed either.....

Workin' 4 Toys
07-23-2006, 11:55 PM
I was also thinking of using
Hushboard (http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pname=Hushboard%c2%ae+Sound+Deadening +Board&pid=1071&hierarchy=pc)
However, I haven't looked to see if it resists fire.

Is cellulose insulation better/same/worse than fiberglass for sound deadening?

SOCALBREW.... I am not in a hurry, so no need to wish me luck yet. I ain't done with the questions....;)

As described previously. I was thinking of making a "pocket" using 1X material (steel or wood) and adding another layer of drywall to the outside of that. Will this do much good? Will adding this acoustiblok to that increase the sound deadening? If so, by how much?

JimN
07-23-2006, 11:56 PM
Sorry- I had heard something about you, sheep, Mazola, handcuffs, a car battery and jumper cables.

JimN
07-24-2006, 12:02 AM
There are acoustic specs on the Acoustiblock site, with a graph that has frequency dependant attenution. The Acoustiblock works pretty well. Each additional layer of material makes a difference. Dynamat, Stinger's Roadkill- any dense, rubber membrane will help. If you google sound deadening materials, you'll get more info than you could possibly want.

There are ASTM (American Society for Testing Materials) specs for the Sound Transmission Coefficient (STC) and Noise Reduction Coefficient (NRC) in the data sheets for almost all building materials.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:04 AM
That's Hoosier Bob you describe........:rolleyes:

JimN
07-24-2006, 12:06 AM
Sorry, I had heard that you were originally from Utah, where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:11 AM
SOCOBREW...
It might be about 1500sq ft. of wall/ceiling area.
Which is the more "economical" way to do this?
A fiberboard like material, or the "rubber" mating? And I assume the finished product should be a layer of drywall no matter what.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:14 AM
Sorry, I had heard that you were originally from Utah, where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous.
Born and raised in the midwest.........

SoCalBrew
07-24-2006, 03:00 AM
Well, first, I am curious if you are part of the situation that would be making the sounds you were describing... What type of structure is all this machinery in. If you have control of the situation, if possible,
take the heavy machines and put them on rubber mounts, so that they are not transmitting sound to the structure itself - Especially anything that is generating low frequency sounds. Secondly, I would spray the interior with sound deadening material, again to dampen leakage and transmition to the structure.

If not, check out these links for ideas on creating reasonable to high-end soundproofed walls. There's a bunch of theory on these sites that is worth knowing... and I think it will best help you decide where to start, and with what material.

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10.html

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10b.html

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10c.html

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/soundbd1.html

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/soundbd2.html

And view this if you are considering Sound Board:

http://www.asc-soundproof.com/wd-articles-soundboard.htm

--
Again, you are goin to have the most difficulties with the low frequencies. How much you need to filter out is probably going to determine the type of material, and how far you will need to go with your design...

Give the guys at http://www.acoustic-material.com/ a call, they can probably better point you in the right direction with regards to your specific situation.

Tom

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 10:59 AM
Well, first, I am curious if you are part of the situation that would be making the sounds you were describing... What type of structure is all this machinery in. If you have control of the situation, if possible,
take the heavy machines and put them on rubber mounts, so that they are not transmitting sound to the structure itself - Especially anything that is generating low frequency sounds. Secondly, I would spray the interior with sound deadening material, again to dampen leakage and transmition to the structure.

Tom
I AM THE SITUATION.....:D
Second, that is this spray you speak of? A coating to put on drywall?

east tx skier
07-24-2006, 11:09 AM
build a box in a box (for really good isolation and much less transmission)

Now there's a man who's researched building a home studio. :)

Workin,' they sell stuff you can just staple to the walls at the online music site, i.e., www.musiciansfriend.com. It's pricey though and won't work as well as the box within a box thing.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 11:39 AM
Now there's a man who's researched building a home studio. :)

Workin,' they sell stuff you can just staple to the walls at the online music site, i.e., www.musiciansfriend.com (http://www.musiciansfriend.com). It's pricey though and won't work as well as the box within a box thing.

I get the concept of the "box" however we are talking about approx 1500 sq ft of walls and ceilings. And floor space is prime realestate if you know what I mean. Every inch counts. I am leaning towards a layer of the rubber, along possibly another of a fiber type material, and drywall with this "coating" on top as mentioned before (If I figure out what that is). I would like the surface to be smooth to keep it easy to wipe down and easy to recoat. Probably end up with greenboard on the surface, (I think)

JimN
07-24-2006, 11:40 AM
"Now there's a man who's researched building a home studio."

No, but I did sleep at......

Actually, I originally went to school for architecture and learned a lot about acoustics at that time. Then, I transferred to another school and took more acoustics. Later, I worked for a good sized consumer electronics dealer and when they did a remodel at the store, we put a home theater in and the acoustics $ucked, big time and while I was dealing with that, the sales guys came up and said something like, "by the way, is there any way to make the speakers in the big room sound better? There's a low rumble in there and you can't hear any bass from the Klipsch Corner Horns or La Scalas." I got the theater problems taken care of and then went after the big room. When I was doing car audio, we used Dynamat and Roadkill, along with some spray-in stuff. I also know people who either work or worked in recording studios here in MKE and had a subscription to Modern Recording and a couple of pro audio contractor trade mags and this stuff was discussed a lot.

(One of the people who has a studio bought the 32 track digital recorders that were used on Pink Floyd's 'Delicate Sound of Thunder' CD and has worked with Blondie, Talking heads, Live, The BoDeans, Violent Femmes, and a bunch of others)

JimN
07-24-2006, 11:49 AM
WFT- weatherstrip the door to the house and somehow, add another one (steel insulated, well weatherstripped) inside the garage. If you'll be adding a closet in the garage, maybe put it near the door and orient the door inside the garage perpendicular to the other one, in order to break up the direction of the sound.

If you can't do the "box w/in", can you build a wall next to, but not touching, the fire wall that's common to the garage and family room? That would accomplish a lot of the same things. If there's going to be heavy impacts in the garage, those are almost impossible to stop. The grinding, etc is mostly mid-range and higher frequencies, so they'll be easiest to stop. Heavy things impacting the concrete floor will transmit directly to the house foundation and you won't stop those. If you'll be pounding on benches, the legs can be isolated from the floor with rubber pads.

If you're going to be dialing in a carb on a big block, if you could move the car or motor stand away from the wall and run a tube through the wall or door for the exhaust to go through, that'll make a huge difference in the volume level, too. You won't hear the rumble nearly as much. Wilkinson-Capstrand sells the fittings used by service shops for running the cars inside during winter.

east tx skier
07-24-2006, 11:54 AM
Workin', I hear you on ease of wipedown and floorspace being at a premium. Never did the box in a box setup, but have read a lot about it and figured Jim was coming from somewhere in the audiophile background. Unless you're going inside the walls, I think something you could spray on would be best. What about getting someone to hose the place down with bedliner? I tried the foam board with a fabric overlay and am not convinced it made a huge difference. I've heard of people using the pink insulation and covering it with burlap, but that sounds a little unsightly to say the least. Whatever you do, if you use foam, make sure the stuff is flame retardant. I've heard of people using those eggshell pads and the idea of that sounds pretty scary if you've ever taken some of that stuff and set it ablaze.

Jim, I'll bet that 32 track digital job is a beast. I've just got a high end sound card and a desktop with a twelve channel mixer plugged into it. Haven't gotten up to 32 tracks, but if the memory space is sufficient, it would do it.

Afterall, it's all analog at some point unless it's keyboards or midi.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 11:58 AM
Now were talkin'!
This may be my trial run at sound deadening so when I put in that entertainment center, I'll have some practice...;)

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:02 PM
ETS. I WILL NOT use anything flammable. There will be alot of sparks, flames, and combustibles within. I do not need a problem like that. Foam is not an option.
So far there are some good links, and I am also planning on stopping in by one of my suppliers I deal with and ask more questions and get some idea on $ on these materials we already covered.

SOCALBREW, do you have any idea what it will cost in any of these materials to cover 1500 sq ft?

east tx skier
07-24-2006, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I'd avoid it. The reason that stuff at musiciansfriend is so $$$ is that it is fire retardant. Good luck.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:10 PM
Yeah, I'd avoid it. The reason that stuff at musiciansfriend is so $$$ is that it is fire retardant. Good luck.
And I can't forget, there will be some weight cantilevered off the "wall" too, so it has to be sturdy. So the thin "box" wall is not an option either.

I have another obstacle to overcome in the near future as well pertaining to flameproofing. What to do to the garage refrigerator so it won't ignite the fumes.....but that will be another thread when the time comes....:D

JimN
07-24-2006, 12:17 PM
WFT- you mentioned wipe down and if you can swing it, look into FRP for the wall covering. They're Fiberglass Reinforced Panels and are used in many applications. They have them in the shop in Indiana where they do development for MC, Indmar, GM and Delphi. He teaches the MC service training classes. They can write on them with erasable markers, etc. Since they would be the first surface hit by the sound, they would be effective in cutting down on transmission but the shop itself wil be pretty loud so I would add some deadening panels there, too. Rigid fiberglass panels (2'x4'- pretty cheap and available all over) with a flame-proof covering works great for this.

JimN
07-24-2006, 12:20 PM
Doug- they're (he has two of them) Mitsubishi 32 track high-end recorders. There was a studio downtown that bought them after 'Delicate Sound of Thunder' was recorded and when that one closed down, Dave bought them. They were in a climate controlled room on the place downtown. Nice setup- no parallel surfaces, moveable panels, nice, big control room.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 12:27 PM
WFT- you mentioned wipe down and if you can swing it, look into FRP for the wall covering. They're Fiberglass Reinforced Panels and are used in many applications. They have them in the shop in Indiana where they do development for MC, Indmar, GM and Delphi. He teaches the MC service training classes. They can write on them with erasable markers, etc. Since they would be the first surface hit by the sound, they would be effective in cutting down on transmission but the shop itself wil be pretty loud so I would add some deadening panels there, too. Rigid fiberglass panels (2'x4'- pretty cheap and available all over) with a flame-proof covering works great for this.
I thought FRP panels were 1/8" thick 4'X8' sheets usually white you'd use in kitchen areas and the like, and had a rough surface texture. Also chemical resistant I gather.
I'll look into these 2'X4' cheap versions.

JimN
07-24-2006, 12:48 PM
FRPs- yup, those are the ones. They come with a smooth side, too.

For the 2'x4' panels, any building supply place should have them or look in the phone book for acoustical supply dealers and/or insulation installers/dealers. The ones I bought were kind of dinged up but the ones that would be in view were the whole ones. If I needed a partial piece, I just cut them with a razor knife. They can be layered and if you double or triple them, the frequencies affected are lower but not into the bass region. An acoustical materials supplier should have what you need and there may be a branch in Chicago called C.A.S.H. (Contractors Acoustical Supply House). They have most of the current materials in stock. There is a branch here in the MKE area.

Rockman
07-24-2006, 01:43 PM
Well, multiply this by the fact most of it gets done between 6PM and 2AM.....

Hey, those are the same hours at my house with the same noises! I have cut it back to 10pm with the garage doors open. Don't want to piss off the neighbors that much but sometimes I do it just for fun! :D

Rockman
07-24-2006, 01:45 PM
My brother-in-law actually had a sound proof drum room built in his basement and you cannot hear ANYTHING outside the room. I can check to see who had bulit it for ya if you want...

Ric
07-24-2006, 01:50 PM
Sounds like wft is getting setup for some gaming tables on property... Wft, you will need to figure for parking as well :D

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 11:17 PM
FRPs- yup, those are the ones. They come with a smooth side, too.

For the 2'x4' panels, any building supply place should have them or look in the phone book for acoustical supply dealers and/or insulation installers/dealers. The ones I bought were kind of dinged up but the ones that would be in view were the whole ones. If I needed a partial piece, I just cut them with a razor knife. They can be layered and if you double or triple them, the frequencies affected are lower but not into the bass region. An acoustical materials supplier should have what you need and there may be a branch in Chicago called C.A.S.H. (Contractors Acoustical Supply House). They have most of the current materials in stock. There is a branch here in the MKE area.
Yup, thats where I get my EIFS from. I have a shop I am going to check with soon.

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 11:20 PM
My brother-in-law actually had a sound proof drum room built in his basement and you cannot hear ANYTHING outside the room. I can check to see who had bulit it for ya if you want...
Music rooms, I have often seen them use carpet on the walls and ceilings. Not saying its right, but it worked well. And I can't do that.
I don't really need to know who did it, but what technique they used would be good. Keep in mind, I need to keep the sound out from the outside, not in from the inside.....If that makes sense...

Workin' 4 Toys
07-24-2006, 11:21 PM
Sounds like wft is getting setup for some gaming tables on property... Wft, you will need to figure for parking as well :D
Oh, there will be some tables, you bet. However, in a different room....;) That would be for the entertainment room.....I can't give up valuable shop space....

SoCalBrew
07-25-2006, 04:13 AM
WFT, unfortunately I don't have any quotes for you on prices, the rooms that we have been doing are for feature films, and are significantly larger. So there are a lot more materials used as well as types, and when ya buy in bulk, the cost per goes down... plus it has been long enough, I dont have any of the rate sheets anymore... sorry I can't help on that.