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Knoxes
11-01-2004, 09:33 AM
to suggest that voting for a third party candidate is the same as voting against a candidate. Y'all were right. It's not the same.

But I will stand by my statement that you should vote with the party that best represents your belief system, regardless of their electability (Is that a word?).

aprgriggs
11-01-2004, 09:47 AM
to suggest that voting for a third party candidate is the same as voting against a candidate. Y'all were right. It's not the same.

But I will stand by my statement that you should vote with the party that best represents your belief system, regardless of their electability (Is that a word?).

Even if that means putting the wrong man into office????? :noface:

JimN
11-01-2004, 10:22 AM
Voting for a third party candidate because it's voting according to conscience is a great thing to be able to do, but in a really close race, trying to send a message by voting this way is like preaching to the choir. It can definitely put the wrong person in office. The hard decision becomes: should I vote for my candidate or for the one who will be less bad for the affected area (since it works this way in local and state-wide elections, too).

I think voting for a third-party candidate makes more of a difference if the race is not very close. I used to think the primaries were for eliminating the candidate(s) who have little chance of elected. Now, I think it's just a way for the major parties to trot out their agenda and change it to fit their perception of what the people have told them that they want or need. Reminds me of the title of a song- TMIU ATGA (They Make It Up As They Go Along)

Remember, Kerry was given little chance of surviving the primaries and look where he is now.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 10:29 AM
Even if that means putting the wrong man into office????? :noface:

I couldn't, in good conscience, vote for someone who doesn't represent at least the majority of my issues. If the wrong man is elected, then I've done what I can and the people have spoken - or at least the Supreme Court. ;)

Ric
11-01-2004, 10:38 AM
Tell me I'm wrong Jim, but I think that no matter who the dems put up this year, this race would be just as close. There is a contingent of people out there who plain HATE Bush and they will vote for whoever (D) you put in front of them.

JimN
11-01-2004, 10:51 AM
I don't think it would be as close it they had Dean as their guy, but it was close with Gore, too. The media polls have shown that they aren't accurate anymore and need to be changed. I was watching TV this AM and a guy from Newsweek said the polls didn't work. If someone votes for someone, it's because they agree with the candidate's views and plans. There is a big difference between this and just voting against someone, who may be the lesser of two evils. For this, you don't need to agree with them, you just need to disagree less with them than the other guy.

For a long time, my dad would ask, "Is this the best we have?" I though he was just being a pessimist. I was wrong.

I guess we can be happy with the fact that we aren't ordered to vote a certain way or have to vote anyway, even though there is only one candidate. I'm stilll not too geeked on the fact that the guy with the most money behind him is the one the party sends as their candidate. The Campaign Fund Reform Bill obviously isn't working, since George Soros has fired up for more that $26 Million and another guy more than $20M, all for Kerry. This, the guy who wants to help the middle income families. There are some loopholes that need to be closed. For once, I would like to see a candidate that will help the country, not his/her party.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 10:52 AM
Tell me I'm wrong Jim, but I think that no matter who the dems put up this year, this race would be just as close. There is a contingent of people out there who plain HATE Bush and they will vote for whoever (D) you put in front of them.

How ironic. Lemme quote, umm, myself :D

That conservatives are still supporting Bush. He's abandoned the principles of the GOP - fiscal responsibility, small federal government, personal liberties and hands off foreign policy. He seems to have found some ground that neither party would whole-heartedly endorse.

Tax cuts and massive deficits, grossly inflated federal government, the Patriot Act and taking on a humanitarian effort halfway across the world? I don't get it. This is not your father's GOP.

- me, 10/20/2004

JimN
11-01-2004, 11:16 AM
One other thing to consider, the President (the office, not the person) can't send money and troops somewhere just because it wants to. He has to go through Congress for approval. For someone(ie., a senator) who voted in agreement with the President's intention to involve the US in something, then campaign against the President based on the same things he voted for, saying it's wrong to do this, is BS. If it took him a year to come to the "I voted for it, before I voted against it" stage, what will he do if he's President? He can't just change his mind midstream in a position like that. He needs to consider, based on his knowledge and the information from his advisors, any possible future results from the decisions he makes and stick to them, being honest about why and how he came to make them in the first place. If he is definitely wrong in making the decision(s) in question, history will show this and the future administrations will be able to learn from it. I know it sounds like a big, expensive, inhumane experiment, but isn't this what has happened over the centuries?

Ric
11-01-2004, 11:20 AM
I already answered that stuff knoxes.

I'm willing to look back & admit that dole excited nobody, but what's got the left so incensed is that GW is a genuinely good guy. They HATE that. It's sick but funny that an honest guy is portrayed as evil in this day. These people are voting against bush, not FOR his opponent. That's what I'm getting at. They could have put roger clinton up there and gotten the same result (in my humble opinion)

What would you (or your candidate of choice) done given a declining clinton economy........ AND a spineless attack on our economic system killing thousands and costing us millions of jobs and a stock market collapse like nothing we've seen? Have you forgotten?

JimN
11-01-2004, 11:24 AM
They also used our own stock market to fund their terrorism just before the attacks. When the planes hit, they had already sold their holdings at a great profit, most likely buying again afterward. The few people whose accounts were frozen probably amounted to a small percentage of their total funds.

Roger Clinton, probably not. Tom Arnold, maybe.

(This should not be construed as an endorsement for Tom Arnold in any way, shape or form. If he hadn't married the lovely and talented Rosanne Barr, we would never have heard of him)

(Having stated the above, it should not be necessarily construed as a positive statement in favor of Rosanne Barr. Any perception that it was, is unintentional and purely coincidental. I'm just CMA)

OhioProstar
11-01-2004, 11:42 AM
Actually they shorted stocks, which means they put options in for the market to crash and when it did they made millions.

JimN
11-01-2004, 11:43 AM
Not the same method, but the results were the same.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 11:52 AM
Jim - that's inane. There's been a lot of talk about "real" men on this board lately. If it's anything, it's a man who recognizes and admits his mistakes and shortcomings and takes responsibility for it. Remember JFK and the Bay of Pigs?? That's a real man. I'm not buying that any of you would really respect a manager or family member that behaved as you suggested a president should.

Ric - I respect what W did in Afghanistan - a clear target and nearly unilateral support (this is my answer to your question). The microscope wouldn't be on Iraq had there been the same rationale. I don't question his honesty so much (although I'd love some real answers about his "military service" and alledged cocaine use) - I seriously question his decision making. I mean, who's next? North Korea? Are you really ready for Americans to die?

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 12:04 PM
...GW is a genuinely good guy.

Ric, please don't take this as me disagreeing with you, but what's your basis for this statement. Are you friends with the Bush family? Having grown up in Houston, I realize that this might be a distinct possibility.

Ric
11-01-2004, 12:35 PM
Thats funny doug, no I'm not friends with them but that doesnt mean I cant say hes a good guy.
knoxes, while I share your concern with civil liberties and deficits, we all lived through the clinton years where all was ok as long as you apologized. What does the prez need to apologize for?
Preemption means sending our boys to die for their country. Every one of them died for a worthy cause. Saddam(evil dictator if you've forgotten) is out. "insurgents" are actually terrorists and that's why they are fighting us.
Freedom does not come free. Do I want to wait for that little fella in N.Korea to do something crazy? NO Do I want to see our sons come home in bags? NO Will our sons die to keep him from attacking us? YES
W is not attacking the world willy nilly we arent bombing asprin factories, we are attacking terrorists and their sponsors. (personally, I think we would have lost less men if we'd hit them harder, not worrying of saving the mosques in which they chose to cower but libs would bash him for killing innocents whether there were any or not)
War is horrible and necessary.
Seriously, who's the best man for the job?

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 12:50 PM
I can't fathom the cavalier attitude of this president and his supporters with the lives of American soldiers or people in general. It just baffles me.

And Iraq has never been about terrorists. At least not until all the other rationale were sufficiently exploited.

JimN
11-01-2004, 12:54 PM
Who's talking about "real men"? I was talking about someone who thinks far enough ahead to consider the results of his decisions. If he made mistakes, he should own up to them. I'm not arguing with that. That's being an adult. If you want to define "Real Men", we could go to a totally different thread. What, exactly was inane?

The Bay of Pigs was a very different threat, in a completely different time. That was the other Superpower moving their weapons to within about 90 miles and waiting for the right opportunity to use them if we didn't take their threat seriously enough to do what they wanted. With possibly global war as the result. The USSR made the first military move toward the other country's location by sending ships, troops and weapons with the intent of possibly using them. He could have been as much of a "real man" as he wanted, but he still had to go through Congress for approval.

I personally didn't like the "drop and cover" drills in grade school.

As for W's coke use, I won't defend anyone's use of drugs, but there are a lot of people who used drugs of one kind or another in the past, stopped using and have made valuable contributions. Many of them have become diametrically opposed to their old opinions on this. JFK took a lot of pain meds, for a long time. Including the time surrounding the Bay of Pigs. You don't think they affected his judgement? He may have been able to think clearly on them, and if this was the case, it worked well. Grant was a clinically depressed, raging alcoholic. He served his time in the ARMY and went home. When he realized that the military was the only place he felt that he fit in, he went back. He was still prone to depression and binges, though. Both rose to the tasks at hand. Clinton said he "didn't inhale". Gimme a break! He was in college in the 60's and if anyone wants to talk about deferrments, look at his. He wasn't even in the National Guard or reserves. He went to study in England.

JFK was very decisive and had strong convictions, as did his brother. I think Robert was a bit stronger morally, but as President, I don't think every decision made by every president has been absolutely moral, anyway. Look at Teddy Kennedy. He's never been the poster boy for morals, either. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

The Taliban needed to go. Based on the available intelligence at the time, Hussein was seen as a big problem. Some of this intelligence was shown to be faulty. The fact is, Iraq has missiles that can go farther than the 150 KM restriction mandated by the UN. This means that he could hit Europe (but probably not Russia, Germany or France). Iraqis who defected had documents showing the level of the weapons programs. Do you honestly think that, in a sand covered country of that size, they didn't have the opportunity to bury, move and sell the weapons they had?

JimN
11-01-2004, 01:00 PM
You don't think the Taliban and/or al Qaida have friends in high places in Iraq? Zawahiri went there for treatment when his leg was injured. They have photos and documents of weapons sales to the Taliban and al Qaida.

North Korea probably won't use their nuclear weapons. However, being totally broke, they will definitely sell them to whatever dirtbags want to pony up enough money. The goverment obviously doesn't care about feeding the people, so it escapes me that Communist rulers have all been about totalitarianism and keeping the people enslaved.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 02:10 PM
You know, I need to take a break from this. I'm way too cranky to be discussing politics.

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on: I'll be happy when it's over. Or at least happier.

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 02:17 PM
Thats funny doug, no I'm not friends with them but that doesnt mean I cant say hes a good guy.

What's funny? I didn't say you couldn't say he's a good guy. I was just curious if you knew them and if that was your underlying rationale for the statement? Afterall, it's not uncommon for people who live/lived in and around Houston to know some of the Bush family.

OhioProstar
11-01-2004, 02:18 PM
Wow...this election has really galvanized the voting base.

The country can be divided into two groups. People that understand that Islamo-Fascism around the globe is THE most dangerous threat and those who don't. Keep sticking your heads in the sand and pretty soon you'll get your A$$ blown off by a zealot.

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 02:25 PM
One thing I'm sure we can all agree on: I'll be happy when it's over. Or at least happier.

Sad to say, but it's entirely possible that some of our more die-hard skiers in Canada will be hitting the water before we figure out who won this election. I hope not, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 02:42 PM
Wow...this election has really galvanized the voting base.

The country can be divided into two groups. People that understand that Islamo-Fascism around the globe is THE most dangerous threat and those who don't. Keep sticking your heads in the sand and pretty soon you'll get your A$$ blown off by a zealot.

I bet there's a billion people around the globe saying this exact same thing, substituting Christian for Islamo.

Despite their enormity, W's ears aren't hearing it.

JimN
11-01-2004, 03:11 PM
I think that any time someone with an extreme viewpoint is in power and has absolute power, there's a lot of trouble. When they're not in absolute power, it can still be trouble because of their perception of the world around them.

I agree, it'll be good for all of the mud-slinging and crap throwing to be over. As soon as it is, I think the country needs to take a good, hard look at the election process and whether truth should be more important when it comes to making claims about the candidates. There is so much information coming out so fast that it's just about impossible to sift through all of it by the time we have to cast our ballots.

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 03:14 PM
Amen, Jim. Can't remember which thread it was, but you may recall my saying something about sifting through facts in this so-called "information age."

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 03:30 PM
I think that any time someone with an extreme viewpoint is in power and has absolute power, there's a lot of trouble. When they're not in absolute power, it can still be trouble because of their perception of the world around them.

I agree, it'll be good for all of the mud-slinging and crap throwing to be over. As soon as it is, I think the country needs to take a good, hard look at the election process and whether truth should be more important when it comes to making claims about the candidates. There is so much information coming out so fast that it's just about impossible to sift through all of it by the time we have to cast our ballots.

I couldn't agree more. The policy is to get the information out, then check the veracity.

But you know, the American public is atleast partly responsible for this. They very, very rarely read beyond the headlines.

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 03:50 PM
I'd add that the problem is, in part, linked to 24 hour news and the competitive desire to lead with the "breaking headline." I hope that, given how close this race is turning out to be, the news networks will not call a state either way too early, especially when the polls have not closed yet as was the case in the FL panhandle during the last election when the state was initially called "for Gore" when a lot of people had not yet, if memory serves, cast their ballots.

Ric
11-01-2004, 04:05 PM
What's funny? I didn't say you couldn't say he's a good guy. I was just curious if you knew them and if that was your underlying rationale for the statement? Afterall, it's not uncommon for people who live/lived in and around Houston to know some of the Bush family.
no, what's funny is that I gave the impression that I was friends with them.

knoxes, as angry as you are about all this can you remember our soldier's bodies being dragged thru the streets of somalia? Talk about Cavalier. Have you forgotten?

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 04:08 PM
I'd add that the problem is, in part, linked to 24 hour news and the competitive desire to lead with the "breaking headline." I hope that, given how close this race is turning out to be, the news networks will not call a state either way too early, especially when the polls have not closed yet as was the case in the FL panhandle during the last election when the state was initially called "for Gore" when a lot of people had not yet, if memory serves, cast their ballots.

That, and the consolidation of the media industry, which has produced partisan corporate policy directing the report of the "news". I can't believe that we really have to question the integrity of the mainstream media. My hometown paper is so friggin left, even I'm disgusted with it.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 04:11 PM
no, what's funny is that I gave the impression that I was friends with them.

knoxes, as angry as you are about all this can you remember our soldier's bodies being dragged thru the streets of somalia? Talk about Cavalier. Have you forgotten?

Yeah, I really don't wanna get bent outta shape today. I'm in a foul mood anyway - haven't gotten enough sleep in the last few days. Got a sick pup. I'm gonna take a few deep breaths.

Ok. Yeah, I remember. I've read the book and seen the movie, but I'm completely missing your point.

Ric
11-01-2004, 04:19 PM
I aint talking about any book or movie knoxes, I'm talking about real life. My point is it was clinton who was cavalier about sending our boys off to die.

OhioProstar
11-01-2004, 04:21 PM
Here is what I would suggest: Each party gets X amount of money to advertise what they have to offer and no other ads can be aired. Grass roots efforts can be used but the media barrage has to stop. On top of that each person should be required to show their ID or Passport to vote...period. If I need that to drink a beer or get on a plane...it should be required at the time of voting.

And Knoxes I think you mistook the term "Islamo-Fascism" to mean all Muslims. I would think the majority of Iraqis would say thanks for liberating us, now please exit as soon as you can. When I comes to world opinion I think GW is following what is prudent considering France, Russia, Germany, and China have been directly linked to UN oil-for-food scandals and were the biggest opponents of the war. The UN is a corrupt and utterly impotent governing body. It is clear from Bin Laden's tape that the terrorists would love to see Kerry elected.

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 04:24 PM
no, what's funny is that I gave the impression that I was friends with them.

I don't know if you left that impression or not. Quite often, I hear people say about a public figure that he/she seems like a good person or honest or whathaveyou. I suppose what caught my attention is that you said (and I'm paraphrasing at this point) that what has the left so incensed is that Bush is a good person and he's honest. I guess it caught me as a very matter-of-fact statement, and, given that you're from Texas, I felt compelled to ask if you said that because you grew up with the guy or something, recognizing that it could be entirely possible that you had.

Again, I'm not arguing about whether or not the President is a good guy. It was just sort of a curiousity on my part.

OhioProstar
11-01-2004, 04:25 PM
Oh and BTW...good discussion guys:

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 04:37 PM
That, and the consolidation of the media industry, which has produced partisan corporate policy directing the report of the "news". I can't believe that we really have to question the integrity of the mainstream media. My hometown paper is so friggin left, even I'm disgusted with it.

Don't even get me started on media consolidation. I haven't even thought it through as news outlets go. I'm still bent about what it's done to rock radio.

That wouldn't be the "Daily Texan" by any chance would it (/knows it isn't).

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Hey, I was asking somebody this yesterday. Are the fuel costs for Air Force 1, when it's used in campaigning, have to come from campaign funds? I was just reminded of this question when I read that Bush did a six-state campaign tour today.

Is it obvious that it's getting late in the day?

Ric
11-01-2004, 04:45 PM
I'm with you there doug I've always wondered how that works when the incumbent is campaiging and who foots the costs like fuel, ss agents etc

River Rat
11-01-2004, 04:51 PM
Sorry I'm getting in on this a little late but I had to work today:D :D

If you really want to know if we should be in Iraqi or Afghanistan just ask a solder that has been there! These people have put there lives on the line, come home and in some cases are going back. And all the ones I have asked say we are there for a good reason and feel good about helping the Iraqi people. Ask one of these guy’s or gal’s and I think you will find out that the protesters sitting at home in there lazy boy are more opinionated than folks walking in the sand. I for one feel better knowing that Sadam is no longer in power. I hate to say it but I feel that I will live to see the day a NUK is set off within our boarders. It won’t come from a ICBM but instead be driven across the boarder in the trunk of a Volvo and set off by hand. And it will most likely come from an oil rich region. BUT IT WON’T COME FROM SADAM OR THE TELIBAN !!! (thanks to GW)
I have already voted for the man I think has the backbone to stand up to this kind of enemy.

River Rat
11-01-2004, 04:56 PM
We do!! just one of the perks of being Pres. I also learned that the Kerry gets secret service protection when he starts running for office. I wonder if the Lib's get it also?

east tx skier
11-01-2004, 05:14 PM
I'm with you there doug I've always wondered how that works when the incumbent is campaiging and who foots the costs like fuel, ss agents etc

Well, they both get (and need) SS protection. Clearly, as the President, he needs to be on Air Force 1 (yes, I know that whatever plane he's on is AF1, but I'm talking about the 747). It would seem odd that the fuel costs didn't come from the campaign coffers or weren't reimbursed thereby inasmuch as you can't even use a telephone in the White House to solicit campaign funds.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 05:47 PM
I aint talking about any book or movie knoxes, I'm talking about real life. My point is it was clinton who was cavalier about sending our boys off to die.

Waitaminute. You mean to tell me that Iraq is/was a just cause and Somalia wasn't??

River - I don't think anyone really feels Afghanistan was wrong. I'd be real curious to see what those same soldiers would say what those reasons are. There was an editorial in the Post about this very thing. The soldier said he wasn't sure why he was there.

And if you're concerned about a nuke coming over our border in a Volvo, which I think is a valid concern, I understand. And if that's the case, then SH really wasn't a threat. OBL is. And he's not in Iraq.

Oh, and this just pisses me off. So he shows up on TV, 3 years after going from "our Number 1 priority" to "I don't care where he is...", looking healthier than ever??!! That MF is responsible for the death of 3000 INNOCENT AMERICANS!! And all I get is "I don't care where he is.."??

Ric
11-01-2004, 06:28 PM
I think you need some sleep.
Somalia was a heartbreaking example of clinton's inability to be commander in chief.
Cavalier?
You spoke of being baffled by some people's cavalier perspective regarding sending our boys into harms way.
I'd say somalia was a just cause and clinton blew it with just the attitude that baffles you. (Under armoring your troops, scaling them back to a dangerous level and then undermining them with secret discussions with the enemy......)
I don't really compare the two assuming them both humanitarial missions? Iraq is completely different than somalia.
Be careful not to put words in my mouth.

JimN
11-01-2004, 08:52 PM
I was talking to a friend last week about limiting the campaign expenditures and he brought up the idea that it could be looked at as limiting free speech. I think the amount is getting outrageous, but I can see his point, sort of.

I don't like the fact that Kerry has drawn the same pay since he started running as he would if he was actually working as a senator. Oh, wait- he missed a ridiculous number of votes. Never mind.

I don't know if we've forgotten the reason we were attacked in the first place, which is the Israel/Palestine issue and our alliance to Israel. The Muslims want the US to stop being allied to the Israelis, and unless we change this, we'll be hated by them. Their view that we have too many freedoms and take them for granted is just gravy on the icing.

W said he doesn't really care where OBL is, but what if he's doing what has been done for a long time, trying to lull the opponent into complacency and making a mistake, so our covert guys can make the kill? I'd like to think this is what is happening.


Man, are we getting a lot of mileage from this one!

JimN
11-01-2004, 11:07 PM
Oh, yeah. Did anyone else see the news about the 25000 voters who are registered in both Ohio and Florida? I would really like to see a system where we vote electronically, use a number that never changes to register and the system kicks out redundant votes, just like when an incorrect password is used on the 'net. Of course, this may just be an overreaction due to the election fraud/misconduct in public office/perjury trial when I had jury duty in January.

Knoxes
11-01-2004, 11:49 PM
I don't know if we've forgotten the reason we were attacked in the first place, which is the Israel/Palestine issue and our alliance to Israel. The Muslims want the US to stop being allied to the Israelis, and unless we change this, we'll be hated by them. Their view that we have too many freedoms and take them for granted is just gravy on the icing.



Man, are we getting a lot of mileage from this one!

Yeah, you're right Ric. I need some sleep. Doesn't help that I probably totaled my car tonite. :mad: I'm having an extreme run of bad luck. Kidney stones, robbery and now this. double grrrr....

Now that I've vented a bit, I think you have a great point here, Jim - something I think hasn't been discussed practically at all since the few days following 9/11. I read an interesting editorial on this about a week ago. I think it was another Wash Post one but I'm not sure. It was talking about Kerry's unspoken policy on the Middle East. It goes like this: In order to secure a successful coalition for Iraq and future diplomatic democratic efforts in the ME, he'd have to abandon our position on Israel/Palestine and join the rest of the world in demanding a Palestinian state. We're the only one standing still supporting the Israeli occupation and this would obviously seriously undermine our relationship with the only real ally we have in the region. But he's apparently ready to do that in order to develop the relationships with mostly Muslim populations. If it's successful, we also secure a larger, more diverse oil supply and begin to eliminate the anti-Americanism thats fueling the terrorist organizations, there-by removing the threat. I don't think this is a card he wants to throw on the table pre-election - for several reasons. But I think it's a valid and sound policy on the ME. We'll obviously alienate Israel initially, a close ally, but I think with the additional international pressure and some very , very skillful massaging (this is where Clinton excelled), it's possibly a relationship that we can maintain. Now whether or not he can pull this off is a very big IF. But it's a policy that reduces the risks of terrorists activity, secures an oil supply and promotes democracy in a theocratical region - all without engaging in warfare. Apparently, this is the Kerry camp gameplan.

JimN
11-02-2004, 01:03 AM
Sorry to hear about all of the bad stuff happening. I hope you're done with it.

I seem to remember that almost everyone I heard protesting the first Gulf War saying that we only went in for the oil. I don't remember seeing incredibly low gas prices afterward, though, so I kind of doubt that this was the case. If Kerry wins and does try to go through with his unspoken ME policy, it would no doubt appease the Muslims of the world, but would absolutely enrage the Israelis and the Jews everywhere. I think he's going to have to come up with some kind of middle ground policy because if he doesn't, he'll never be re-elected. I don't think the US can afford to do a 180 with their Mideast policy. I don't know why so many world leaders were asleep at the wheel when the Muslim extremist numbers grew so much but if you look at their track record, along with Muslim dictators, they have killed more people in violent attacks than any other group. RFK, the Israeli Olympic athletes, Anwar Sadat, 9-11, Spanish train bombing, USS Cole, World Trade Center attack #1, Beirut Marine barracks, Embassy bombings, Saddam Hussein gassing many thousands of Kurds, the Iran/Iraq war, etc. They hate the US because of the Mideast policy and they can't even get along together.

I find it ironic that the God of Christanity, Jehovah in Judaism and Allah are the same deity.

jimmer2880
11-02-2004, 07:10 AM
Oh, and this just pisses me off. So he shows up on TV, 3 years after going from "our Number 1 priority" to "I don't care where he is...", looking healthier than ever??!! That MF is responsible for the death of 3000 INNOCENT AMERICANS!! And all I get is "I don't care where he is.."??
I think that is W's way of telling Pakistan that we're not going to level their country..... yet.

Stritt
11-02-2004, 08:37 AM
:) .....no comments. I have voted already. Now, my decision is concrete.

OhioProstar
11-02-2004, 09:10 AM
There will never be peace between Jews and Muslims, you can't erase thousands of years of hatred with some political BS. Most peace agreements fall apart or were intended to cover up true intentions...ie. Camberland and Hitler. If you do a little research Bush did say that Palistenians should have a country...only if they stopped the murdering of innocent people.

Ric
11-02-2004, 11:25 AM
I voted undecided today.

Knoxes, sorry to hear of your bad health/luck. Get some sleep and remember to vote tomorrow!

Seriously, we can differ on politics, but dammit take care of yourself.

Ric
11-02-2004, 11:31 AM
35th is the one having a good day, already voted, got the boat back and all eyes are on FL!

OhioProstar
11-02-2004, 01:02 PM
All Eyez On OH!!!

Knoxes
11-02-2004, 01:17 PM
I voted undecided today.

Knoxes, sorry to hear of your bad health/luck. Get some sleep and remember to vote tomorrow!

Seriously, we can differ on politics, but dammit take care of yourself.

We took out a deer last night - a big buck from what I could tell. We were on the freeway going about 60. The airbag blew and the cabin filled with smoke. I figure the car's gonna be totaled. It was just me & Mrs. K. We had just dropped lil K off at her parents house. Thankfully nobody was hurt other than some burns on my arm from the airbag. This coulda been much, much worse.

captkidd
11-02-2004, 02:27 PM
I find it ironic that the God of Christanity, Jehovah in Judaism and Allah are the same deity.

Jim, I must respectfully disagree with you about that one. The God of Christianity is not the same as Allah. Don't have the time or the theological expertise to go into all of the differences, but we definitely do not worship the same God, and it's far more than just different beliefs in the same God.

Knoxes, sorry to hear about the bad stuff. Hope things get better for you soon (right after you recover from your election disappointments). ;)

Seriously guys. After this whole mess is over I hope we can all go back to talking about the things that are really important (in no particular order):

- Doug's socks
- JimN's technical expertise
- Mark's housework
- Rick's marriage advice
- Mag's love life
- teak vs. fiberglass platforms
- my speling profishiency
- everyone else's new boats

And the number one thing we all have in common: MasterCraft boats

Let's put all this behind us, bury our differences, pray for our country and our troops, and not hold any grudges or pass any judgments. GROUP HUG!

east tx skier
11-02-2004, 02:53 PM
I couldn't be happier that my socks are ranked higher as a discussion topic than JimN's technical expertise. :D

Ric
11-02-2004, 05:37 PM
All Eyez On OH!!!
woops, excuse me FL & OH!!

JimN
11-02-2004, 06:51 PM
Captkidd- not that I am trying to make this a theological discussion, but you might want to google Allah. I found a site that says the Arabic translation of the Hebrew Bible has the Hebrew God(Eloh) spelled and pronounced Alah. I did some searching after 9-11 to see what kind of religion would allow that kind of madness and it's not the majority of Muslims that condone it, just the nutjobs. Since the Hebrew God and the God of Christianity are the same, it follows that if the Arabic translation of Eloh is Alah, all three have the same one.

It's still good that we can discuss so many topics, though. We are obviously an intelligent group, right?

Group hug? :toast:

OhioProstar
11-02-2004, 09:38 PM
I think we can all say that we are glad to have at least the motions of voting out of the way after tonight and hopefully we will know who will be driving the boat. Speaking of which......anyone else in Boating Withdrawl......hands shaking...dry mouth, need a pull

Hoosier Bob
11-02-2004, 10:00 PM
We have a few more weeks left! We have to! It can't be over, it just can't! I swear I have a pack around here somewhere! Where's my ski? Has anyone seen my ski! Where is my ski? Mag, Leroy, Stevo, 6Balls and OPstar do not go gentle into that good night! The light is here now!
So is the "BEER!"I think we can all say that we are glad to have at least the motions of voting out of the way after tonight and hopefully we will know who will be driving the boat. Speaking of which......anyone else in Boating Withdrawl......hands shaking...dry mouth, need a pull

Leroy
11-02-2004, 10:58 PM
Knoxes; glad to see you standing, I was on a 10 year cycle on kidney stones from ~18 so I'm overdue now at 44! Do they ever hurt, porcupine balls out the wee wee, if you have ever seen them. I never appreciated morphine so much.

While living in Belgium, different people in Europe always asked why do we (Americans) always take the side of Jews (Israel) and never help the Muslims (Palestine). Their arguments are strong, maybe I'm just not smart enough to argue back, Palestine is fighting for a homeland also. I think the combination of what happened to Jews in WWII and Jews have been more recognized in the US, helped Israel get a homeland and US support. I just wish we could all get along and ski a little each day.......I'm sure we would all be friends if we were skiing together!

Watching the election results from California tonight! Several snow ski resorts open off I-80, 1-2' of snow beside the road coming over from Reno.

OhioProstar
11-02-2004, 11:02 PM
A Hun-dee and Fiddy days to go!!!!

Leroy
11-03-2004, 12:25 AM
Hoosier Bob; I wish it wasn't so, but it's gonna take a long road trip!

Knoxes
11-03-2004, 12:44 AM
Thanks Leroy. We've had a bad run lately. These stones haven't hit yet so... it's just a ticking time bomb. I have 2 right now - one in each kidney. My last episode, about a year ago, I had 14 shots of demoral and I had to pull out of a duathlon that I'd been training months for. This last batch were discovered when I actually had to walk off the course in a triathlon in September and empty my stomach into some shrubbery.

That, and we got robbed about 6 weeks ago and the sumbeotch stole most of my tools. :mad: And my mountain bike. I was trying to do some work on the Jeep tonite and I kept having to go look and see if I had what I needed and finding out that I don't have the tools to finish the job. Man, I was cussing up a storm. In fact, I was so mad, I wrote this little letter to him.

Dear Thief:


You suck.


Sincerely,

K.