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View Full Version : Additives K-100 (STABIL Questionable)


Jim@BAWS
10-30-2004, 02:56 PM
"I would have not believed it if I had not seen it myself"

Three weeks ago before I helped winterize a 93 Prostar190 285 HP HO, I took the boat out for a final spin around Henderson Harbor in Upstate NY. Having driven 100s of inboards in all kinds of conditions, I was asked if I saw or felt a difference in performance of the boat. I did!150-200 extra RPMs along with a better hole shot. Why you ask ? A leeser known additive call K-100. A small company in upstate NewYork called KENETIC Labs produces this stuff and the family owned business had no idea what they had. In the past we where using SEAFOAM from NAPA. Another good additive. But not like K-100. After using it we contacted the company for a demo. The rep showed up from the Florida area and did a experiment right in front of us with STABIL, STP gas treatment and K-100. The viles tell the story. Each vile has equal amounts of water and additive. Look closely. The vile on the left (2 weeks old) has STABIL and water. The nail in it is rusting away... there is still water at the bottom. The vile in the middle is STP...rust on the nail and water is still seperated out. The vile on the right is K-100. NO RUST AND NO WATER. K-100 combines with the water molecule and allows it to burn YES BURN. We took a papertowel used it as a WICK and it continued to burn like a candle.

This additive is AWESOME ! Increased performance, cleans the combustion chambers (when the K-100 BURNS) the "Coated" water molecule is ignited at over 2000 deg and basically steam cleans you combustion chamber of all excess carbon. Increased HP because it acts like a OCTANE booster, lastly it protects your metal parts in the fuel system. SEE NO RUST IT PROTECTS. Try this stuff. It works. We have SOLD probably 20 of the small 8oz. bottles just for performance. Everyone so far says the "STUFF REALLY WORKS" I would have not believed it myself. :woohoo:

P.S. I wanted to try one of these smiley things!

Jim @ Bay Area WaterSports Tampa FL

www.k100ft.com

www.bayareawatersports.com

JimN
10-30-2004, 04:23 PM
Why is there so much less in the bottle on the right? Also, typical combustion temperature is in the area of 1500 degrees, give or take. A trick old time drag racers used was to inject a little water at the intake when they needed a boost. It makes the air charge more dense and cooler, giving more expansion.

Jim@BAWS
10-30-2004, 04:30 PM
The additive and the water where burned in the WICK + the absorbtion in the papertowel removed some of it.

Jim N This is GOOD STUFF !!!

Jim @ BAWS

Dean Witmer
10-30-2004, 07:04 PM
It was my boat that Jim tested this stuff in. I have never used an additive before and had little faith in this one. You can imagine my suprise when I saw an increase in rpms of 150 -200. It is an octane booster, water remover and gas stabilizer. I have used it to winterize 3boats and 3 tractors. I'll let you know what I think of it in the spring. Ah heck why wait! The stuff is great!

Dean Witmer
10-30-2004, 07:21 PM
If you can't get K-100 from your local dealer try Chuck or Jim at - www.bayareawatersports.com.

Mag_Red
10-30-2004, 07:28 PM
:rant: Thanks for not posting this about a week ago before I stabiled the boat!!!!! :D GUess I'll give it a shot next year after I clean all the rust out of the fuel system.

JimN
10-30-2004, 09:08 PM
I found their website- www.k100fueltreatment.com and it shows where it's available. The only thing I have a problem with it the fact that the in-tank fuel filters won't pass water molecules because they're too big. Unless the K100 breaks down the water into hydrogen and oxygen (not usually just a physical reaction and it says that it encapsulates the water molecules), it still won't pass through the filter element. It should go through the in-line filters, though since they have slightly larger pores.

jimmer2880
11-01-2004, 06:45 AM
thx for the info... I'll start using that instead of sta-bil.

lsupcar
11-01-2004, 04:04 PM
Abottle of techron is a common recommendation before an oil change in a car. Is anyone using Techron in their boat, maybe running it through in the last tank before the final fill up and putting it up? Thanks. Bill Z

Storm861triple
11-01-2004, 05:27 PM
Increased HP because it acts like a OCTANE booster,


I'm a skeptic of all "addatives" partly because so many of them are a sham, and partly because I've never had any problem with fuel. Even after sitting. So, as a skeptic I will say this:
1. I would definitely have to SEE a 150 RPM increase from a bottle (Other than a bottle of N2O), to actually believe it.
2. The above statement is false. Increased octane doesn't result in more power, everything else being equal. In some engines, increased octane results in more POTENTIAL for power, assuming some changes are made to take advantage of the increased octane, but a carbureted 351w in a '93 boat isn't one of them. More acurately, in this application, I would put money on making more power w/lower octane, since it burns faster than high octane, and detonation is not an issue here.

I'll stick to Chevron 85 octane...straight up.

JimN
11-01-2004, 08:55 PM
Isn't Techron an additive that Shell or one of the other companies puts in their gas?

Tom- you mean stick with 85 Octane and advance the timing a bit?

lsupcar
11-01-2004, 09:25 PM
Techron is the additive used by Chevron and from what I hear is felt to be the most effective. Thanks for your thoughts. Bill Z

Jim@BAWS
11-01-2004, 09:30 PM
Thomas,
Sorry that you are such a skeptic ! I DO NOT put out FALSE info.
I was surprised to see the difference. Those photos where taken by me in my own shop.

By the way 85 Octane? Are you some kind of chemist. For $7 USD you should try a bottle then come back with your report and see what happens.

Jim @BAWS

Storm861triple
11-02-2004, 11:48 AM
JimN, I do mean that I'll stick with Chevron 85 octane. For my combo(stock 240hp 351) and operating environment Lake Powell and Park City, I can achieve optimal timing/power with out using octane any higher than 85. I did advance my ignition timing when I bought the boat. If I try to advance the timing any further than I have it right now, I loose RPM, but hear no detonation. IMO, these older engines run too low a compression, combine that w/the relatively cool operating temps (compared to a car) and detonation is not an issue. 85 octane is perfectly addequate. On an LT1, LTR, Predator, etc, with their higher compression, this may not be true.

But this thread used a '93 351 as a test case, and I know that with no other changes this engine will not pick up 1 hp due to an increase in octane rating of the fuel used.

Jim@BAWS, Not trying to call you a lier at all, just that I have some pretty extensive experience w/internal combustion engines of all kinds, and I'm sticking to what I said above; a 351w will not pick up 1 hp from nothing but an increase in octane rating. What you're claiming to have witnessed would be an increase of about 15-20 hp. That's tough nut to swallow. The following statement isn't accurate, and I posted what I did so other forum members who don't have as much mechanical back ground, could consider this point.

Increased HP because it acts like a OCTANE booster,

Increased octane ALONE, will never increase hp. The higher octane does not produce more power.

Since it's November, and there is over a foot of snow on the ground here in Park City, it's not likely that I'll be buying a bottle to try anytime soon. If someone wants to send me a sample to try, I might consider trying it in my snowmobile or my truck. If there were any improvement, it would be immediately noticable in either of those machines.

FrankSchwab
11-02-2004, 12:11 PM
OK, let's be real here.

Lot's of chemicals will absorb water - many of them are even compatible with gasoline. For example, Ethanol burns easily, readily absorbs fairly large quantities of water, and will mix quite easily with gasoline. It's also sold at every boating shop as "water absorber" or some such.

The claim that this additive causes the water "to burn YES BURN" is a bit over the edge. Water is a very stable molecule, and chemically you're not going to do much with it. Let's agree that this additive absorbs the water, allows it to safely traverse the fuel system, and ejects it from the cylinders as water vapor.

Added power? Well, it's possible. There are many chemicals with greater energy available than gasoline. Whether a 10-oz bottle of them dissolved in a 30 gallon tank of gasoline could do anything noticeable is debatable.

You saw what you saw; In my training as an engineer, however, I don't believe anything that only occurs once, especially in an uncontrolled environment.

As with most engine additives (gas, oil, whatever), I remain skeptical until a few well-run tests by independent experts (or even independent, skilled amateurs) start showing similar results.

/frank

Thrall
11-02-2004, 12:16 PM
Increased octane ALONE, will never increase hp. The higher octane does not produce more power.

Thomas is correct here. Higher octane fuel burns slower, ie: the same amount of 87 oct and 91 oct, the 91 will burn longer. For regular fuels, pump gas, the heat of combustion is not significantly different from low to high octane, but higher octane has a greater energy potentail because it produces the same heat energy for a longer period of time.
If you advance the ignition to the point of detonation w/ 87 and then run 91, the detonation will disappear and you will make more power because you aer pushing the piston through it's stroke w/ a longer duration of charge. This effect is not limitless, you can't keep advancing the ign and upping the octane for more power endlessly w/o making other modifications to accomodate the change.
There are many other factors that affect this, cam duration, valve lift, head design, port design, exhaust evacuation, static compression, temperature, air pressure (altitude).
85 octane! Absolutely. At the altitude Tom runs his boat, the atmospheric pressure is significantly less than someone in TX, WI, etc.
His running compression is lower than the same given engine at low altitude, reducing the necessity for a higher octane fuel.



I could see you gaining rpms and hp w/ this stuff if it increased the octane rating, cooled the charge w/H20, etc AND the boat was tuned for this already. If that is the case though, you're just not getting as much out of it w/ the current setup running low octane.
I do believe that fuel stabilizers work, though. I've experienced problems not using them.
Thomas, you don't have any problems because you're a true gear head and you start all your toys up on a regular basis even when they're stored just to smell the exhaust!
LOL, Just kidding! I fire my sled up every month too just to hear it run!

Storm861triple
11-02-2004, 12:20 PM
Two very good posts, IMO. ^^

Rockman
11-02-2004, 01:03 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Storm861triple
11-02-2004, 01:28 PM
Thomas, you don't have any problems because you're a true gear head and you start all your toys up on a regular basis even when they're stored just to smell the exhaust!
LOL, Just kidding! I fire my sled up every month too just to hear it run!

Now when I read that I actually DID LOL! Good one, and it HAS been known to happen...Not for the exhaust smell (so much) as I just wanted to hear that sweet sounding rip of a nice triple piped triple. :headbang:
Mmmm. Not this year though. They sat all summer, un touched in the corner of my new garage. :)

sfitzgerald351
11-02-2004, 04:41 PM
Having read these posts I'm curious... Do we really think you can 'feel' better hole shot? I sure doubt it. Maybe if you fill or empty some ballast tanks, but with 2 people and a few hp gain I doubt you could tell much. Now some extra rpms at the top end should be measureable. However, I've always discovered when up at Tahoe that my parent's boat goes about 1-2 mph faster at night than during the day while loaded about the same. I suspect that it's the cooler air (like 45 degrees vs 80). So while there certainly might be some benefits to this new additive I think we need to see some more objective evidence supporting it. All sorts of other things could have influenced the results. The jar test does seem like a good first step. Goodness knows that people are inventing all sorts of great stuff everyday.

I'm curious though. The gas stabilizers are designed to be mixed with gas in a certain ratio. So is it possible that putting them in a jar 'straight' with water is not that realistic of a test? Rather, should it have been done with a large quantity of gas, the nail, and the proper amount of additive? My fuel/water separator presumably keeps the water out of my engine so I'm more interested in the fuel stabilization than soaking up the water.

I'm not out to debunk this product. I'm sure we all want to use the best products we can in our boats. But we have some proven products out there and need to be convinced. So Jim@BAWS maybe you could see about some more data since you've talked with the rep? I think lots of people would be interested in it.

Jim@BAWS
11-02-2004, 05:54 PM
Scott,
I come to this website as I used to come to the OLD MC Owners site to offer assistance, parts and service at a great price and maybe a little consolation when you as owners feel displaced by your local dealer. Now I feel like I am on the defense. Guess I better not tell you that I voted for George W. Bush today.
I am not a CHEMIST or a ENGINEER. Only reporting what happened when I used the product. Just reporting what I saw. The evidence is in the bottles.

As far as "FEELING" a difference in hole shot...All the time. I rely on it all the time. My 2001 19 Skier went from a 13 x 13 Nybral to a 4 blade 13 x 12 1/2 stainless Cutter Better Hole shot. Scott used to have a 85 Stars and Stripes like yours (Powerslot) went from a standard 3 blade 14 x 18 3 blade to a 4 blade 14 x 17 1/2. Big difference. 1993 285 HP 3 blade Nybril to a 13x13 4 blade. I notice the differnce because of driving so many boats. (Notice ALL these boats are PS 190's.) we sell alot of 4 blade props because of better performance. The additive only helped !

I did not mean for the info to turn into a "PISSIN" competition. Just relaying the results that I have seen. Trying to help a few fellow owners out.

Hopefully I did. Noticed more people have read the comments vs. adding there comments

Jim @ BAWS

paulphillipson
11-02-2004, 06:56 PM
Jim, I don't think anyone's comments in this thread should make you feel as though you should be on the defensive. I'm a born skeptic myself, but I think you've said enough positive about this product that I may try it. As for hole shots, all other factors being equal, a powerslot, bigger prop, or bigger engine make a difference. I'm a big fan of powerslots; above 5000' elevation it makes a huge difference in the hole shot.

sfitzgerald351
11-02-2004, 09:13 PM
Jim,

Sorry... didn't want to make you feel on the defensive. I really just want some more info (beyond what is on their website). I'm glad we've been alerted to a new product that has potential. I guess all I'm saying is that so far the evidence by my standards has not been conclusive since the engineer in me refuses to believe 'subjective' data. There is some decent stuff on their website, but it's more marketing and less hard data. I do respect the fact that you have driven tons of boats and have an idea of how they feel and perform and do think that some improvements you can feel (like a prop change). But people are always saying that they put a new cam in or a new intake or a new carb, etc... and that the performance can be felt. But when you put the motor on a dyno (and in the case of cars, put them on the track) there's simply not much difference in power so the performance gain is usually in the mind. I guess that's what makes me skeptical.

The end result? I trust your judgement so I'll give it a try in the spring and see if I can tell the difference myself. And hopefully some others might try it as well and we'll see if there is consensus. Again, thanks for getting the info to us. It's what makes this board so helpful.

jimmer2880
11-03-2004, 06:19 AM
Personally, I've seen enough data here to make me want to drop the $7.00 & try a bottle. As long as it doesn't hurt anything. But - that'll have to wait till next year. i've already bought all the sta-bil I need to get me through this year.

Thrall
11-03-2004, 09:55 AM
Jim@BAWS,
Yeah, don't get the wrong opinion. I'm not bashing the K100 product, just having an intelligent discussion here. While I don't have the boat experience you do, I've been a "shadetree" mechanic since I was old enough to "mod " my tri cycle, including several years working as a mechanic.
Point is, I'm just adding my opinion on this subject and I'm all for fuel stabilizers, just can't attribute performance gains by 1 bottle additives (Unless that bottle happens to contain a significant amount of nitrous!!!)
If we didn't have these discussions, what fun would the site be?

TalleyHo
11-06-2004, 08:32 PM
What's up w/ the Bay Water Sports web site. Are they selling so much K100 that the site is down?! There aren't any local dealers in Texas (not according to the web site anyway), so I thought I'd shoot some business BAWS way...

I figure I'll try it this year -- I haven't decided if I am going to do a full winterization, but I definately won't be using the X quite as much in the next 4 months as I have the past 4 months.

Jim@BAWS
11-07-2004, 09:58 AM
www.bayareawatersports.com

(813) 996 2297

Jim

Leroy
11-07-2004, 03:08 PM
Interesting reading. If I understand there are several key items.

Stabilizers that don't allow any change in octane and minimize microbial growth.
Lubrication (lubricity for K100), similar to Mystery oil.
Octane boosters
Handle water in the gas.

Found out Chevron actually puts some stabilizing agent in their gas, Stabil and Pri-D are primarily agents to stabilize the gas and Pri-D has data that it will actually increase the octane back to orginal. It seems that most of the mystery solutions are to treat above.

It appears the combination products should be the best and I wonder if you need to fog if you used them?


(This is from the web)
Making your own How to make your own octane booster (this is the basic formula of one of the popular octane booster products). To make eight 16 ounce bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):


100 oz of toulene for octane boost
25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent) This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent *and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

For Water in gas:
8.7 How can I remove water in the fuel tank?
It's to do with improving the miscibility of the normally-immiscible fluids. If you only have a small quantity of water, then the addition of 500mls of dry isopropanol (IPA) to a near-full 30-40 litre tank will absorb the water, and will not significantly affect combustion. Once you have mopped up the water with IPA, small, regular doses of any anhydrous alcohol will help keep the tank dry. This technique will not work if you have very large amounts of water, and the addition of greater amounts of IPA may result in poor driveability.

Water in fuel tanks can be minimised by keeping the fuel tank near full, and filling in the morning from a service station that allows storage tanks to stand for several hours after refilling before using the fuel. Note that oxygenated gasolines have greater water solubility, and should cope with small quantities of water.

Thrall
11-08-2004, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=Leroy]
It appears the combination products should be the best and I wonder if you need to fog if you used them?


Yes, you still need to fog your engine, especially if you live in a humid environment. Fogging oil coats the cylinders, pistons, valves, guides, etc., w/ oil to prevent corrosion to all these parts in the combustion chamber that don't see engine oil. The amount of lubrication in fuel stabilizers is minimal and most is burned off during combustion.

Diesel
11-11-2004, 11:23 AM
www.bayareawatersports.com

(813) 996 2297

Jim


As I was reading this I was saying to myself "Sounds like someone is trying to sell me something" and lo and behold someone is :rolleyes: !!

This doen't sound like a very unbiased or scientific methodology for testing a new product. Buyers beware........................... :(

Jim@BAWS
11-11-2004, 01:38 PM
"Originally Posted by Thrall
One other note, Diesel you need to chill! This is a very friendly, helpful site and if you're so bored that you want to start an argument just to get responses, post somewhere else."

DIESEL,

Had a chance to read some of your other comments on the site. Does the word "TROLL" mean anything to you in the internet world? I would be a FOOL to put my dealerships reputation on the line for a $7 can of additive. By the way we sell additive for your DIESEL motor in your truck. I have gone from approx 15 MPG on my DURAMAX Diesel to almost 18 MPG. You ought to try some, if it does'nt do what I say it does. Get your money back.

Happy Trolling

Jim@BAWS

Diesel
11-11-2004, 05:48 PM
"Originally Posted by Thrall
One other note, Diesel you need to chill! This is a very friendly, helpful site and if you're so bored that you want to start an argument just to get responses, post somewhere else."

DIESEL,

Had a chance to read some of your other comments on the site. Does the word "TROLL" mean anything to you in the internet world? I would be a FOOL to put my dealerships reputation on the line for a $7 can of additive. By the way we sell additive for your DIESEL motor in your truck. I have gone from approx 15 MPG on my DURAMAX Diesel to almost 18 MPG. You ought to try some, if it does'nt do what I say it does. Get your money back.

Happy Trolling

Jim@BAWS

Thrall did you delete you response or something because I only see it in the quote above???

Jim, please elaborate on my other comments on this site................ I have helped quite a few people.

By the way what is so wrong with challenging your claims?? Why so defensive?? Are we just supposed to believe everything you say?? I do not take the word of someone who is trying to sell me something, plain and simple including mfgs.

In case you were wondering, at this point GM does not "officially" recomend any Diesel additives for the Duramax, and sorry but I am not buying.................

BTW do you sell amsoil as well???

Thrall
11-12-2004, 09:16 AM
Diesel,
That response, I believe, is from an old thread. Haven't deleted anything.
Yes, you have added constructive info to this forum. Jury's out on these additives and it'll probably be a hung jury.

Diesel
11-15-2004, 10:43 AM
Diesel,
That response, I believe, is from an old thread. Haven't deleted anything.
Yes, you have added constructive info to this forum. Jury's out on these additives and it'll probably be a hung jury.


Sorry, Thrall I knew something wasn't right ;)